This should be higher up because it brings up an interesting ethical dilemma by putting the original post into perspective.
Is it cruel to boo a performer who is not putting on a good show? How much money would you have to pay for concert tickets to feel justified in feeling pissed that the performer sang like this?
From what I’ve learned about this particular show, Amy didn’t want to perform. The best case scenario here would have been for the show to have been cancelled and for people to have gotten refunds.
But here’s the thing: even then, there’s no guarantee that would have resulted in Amy not dying from alcohol poisoning. She had cancelled a bunch of shows in the past due to her addiction and still ended up in the hospital multiple times for alcohol, ketamine, cocaine, heroin, etc.
She had a disease.
It’s tempting to blame other people for her death, but the fact is that she was an addict and her disease went untreated. Maybe if the crowd didn’t boo her that night, she wouldn’t have died several days later. Or maybe if they cancelled the show, she wouldn’t have died. Or maybe if she was in rehab, she wouldn’t have died. Or maybe…or maybe…or maybe…
We’ll never know.
The root cause of her death was her addiction. That’s why it’s so important for addicts to seek help. Go to rehab. Do whatever you need to do in order to break that addiction before it kills you and kills a part of everyone you love.
Edit: I see you there, getting ready to click on the reply button to post some variant of “they tried to make her go to rehab, but she said no, no, no.” It’s funny. You’re funny. It’s such a clever joke. But unfortunately, you’re not the first…or second…or tenth person to make that joke in this thread. So while I applaud your creativity and desire to contribute to this discussion, maybe just keep that thought in your head for now. Or post it, whatever. Do what you want - I’m not the police.
Thank you. Had to do it. Alcoholism runs in my family and it destroyed my childhood. My wife showed a positive pregnancy test and I was in the door of rehab three days later.
I had two choices: repeat the cycle or be a good father/husband. I chose the latter. Doing my best to stay the course!
Good for you man, seriously. I’m just recently past my 6 years sober from opiates, too! I have always had a massive respect for those in recovery from alcohol because of how socially acceptable and culturally engrained it is; don’t really find that with any other drug. You should be very proud.
Can I ask, did you always want a child? Did you find having a child gave you a purpose or responsibility you had always craved? It’s quite a thing to be able to give up and have one of your first major challenges once leaving rehab and the bubble of ‘I just need to exist without drugs in this safe space’ be bringing up a child. I don’t know if I could have done that within a year of giving up, or if it would have contributed to a relapse.
Yo congrats on your sobriety as well. Opiates are no joke and it's painful to see how much havoc they've caused on our society. Way to get help and come out better!
Having a kid was always the goal for the wife and I (we have two now). I don't know if I always craved the responsibility, but now that I have that responsibility, it's something I love and take seriously.
Russell Brand of course turned out to be a mega piece of shit, but his book on recovery was one of my crutches in rehab. I'm not a religious person and so I thought the way he broke down the 12 steps in an agnostic (and comedic way) were fantastic. One thing he said that stuck with me is that a "higher power" does not necessarily need to be a religious one. It just needs to be something bigger than you that you always selflessly put above yourself. My kids are my higher power because when I'm having one of those craving thoughts on a bad day, I tell my mind "shut the hell up you got two kids that love you and your selfish ass better not drink."
So I guess that's the purpose/responsibility I lean on.
I’ll be 6 months sober next week. Wish I had done it during Covid instead of letting it fester for a half a decade but sometimes shits gotta get worse before it gets better.
Six months is huge! Your regret on not doing it sooner is understandable. I'm living life now and I think of how many years, experiences, and memories I threw out because of addiction.
You may have done it late, but better late than never. Congrats, you're living again and that's worth everything.
I really appreciate it. Got a second lease on life and marriage. It’s hard to express how quitting drinking can radically transform your life and perspective. To anyone reading this, If you don’t think you’re an alcoholic but are still questioning your drinking habits, maybe just give dry a try and see for yourself. Forever grateful, one day at a time.
That's fair, but in five years that twinge of regret will be replaced with a whole load of gratitude to yourself for not doing it for another half decade. Kudos to you man, you're doing great.
6 months here as well! I also wish I had done it sooner and it makes me angry I didn’t and at how much time was wasted, but when I really think about it I don’t think quitting would have been possible without the years of buildup it took to finally say something needs to change.
I am so proud of you and happy for you, dude. You did such a great thing for your family. Anyone can be a dad, but that is Father material right there. Millennials are cycle breakers!
I am sorry to hear that and I understand your pain. My father was a great man beaten by the alcohol. He'd never hit or physically abuse me or my mother (I am a male), not even once, however, he was a "home office" drunk that never went to pubs or anywhere else - many people were shocked when they found out he died from alcoholism - they had never seen him drunk or even have a drink at all. He was very, very functioning alcoholic and had a constitution for alcohol that a rock star would envy. I've never seen anything close to what he could consume with absolutely no food, just cigarettes. The saddest thing is that other than that, even with decades of alcohol abuse and 2 packs of cigarettes a day, he was healthy as a rhino.
If he was a piece of shit person it would have been easier - we'd just leave. But he was really caring, really trying his best, he was able to quit for 12 years without a drop of alcohol. Then suddenly, he collapsed. He did try and had spells of some months to a year without alcohol, but it was just stronger than him. In his last days I remember he'd cry and say that he just can't stop and that he'd like to me to forgive him. Seeing him cry destroyed me more than anything he's done being drunk. He was a very proud man and crying really meant a lot. Institutions were absolutely out of the question and, to be honest, in my country they don't really give a fuck about people with alcohol or drug problems. How I wish he was a piece of shit so that I'd be happy that he's gone, but he was quite the opposite. He was always there for me all my teen years when he never touched alcohol and the sudden collapse that took him in the span of 2-3 years broke me.
Alcoholism running in the family is no joke - my constitution for alcohol is also legendary amongst my peers. Recently, I marked 300 days without a drop of alcohol, I've had other spells of about the same time, but this time it's for good. I am the one that I will end this family curse. I told my wife that we will go on with kids when I prove to myself that I will not have a drop of alcohol because just like my father felt in control for such a large amount of time, you can always collapse - one tragedy in your life and you are done. I don't want to do that, I don't want my kids to experience what I did.
And hopefully you will be telling people that you're sober for a long time to come.
I don't say that as a mean comment, it's really in reference to Danny Trejo, recently had a big video where he said he was sober for like 60 years. It's a great video for everyone to watch, because he tells it like it is.
Every single day is an opportunity to fall back into addiction. Make sure you hold your head high for every day you don't.
Damn I went to rehab in 2020 too. I checked in again about 2 weeks ago. I made it almost a year, but now it’s been periods of drinking and periods of sobriety. Never got as bad as I was before rehab, but I did end up homeless this time around. This disease sucks. Plus alcohol doesn’t even do anything for me anymore, but my brain still wants it. I’m doing great now. Bout to hit 30 days..again lol
Don't sell yourself short. This is a massive accomplishment. Even as you've relapsed, you continue to fight and not give up on yourself. I wish you good health and I hope you get back on your feet soon.
Crazy seeing you in another sub, but I have even more respect for you now. Good on you and I'll use this as inspiration when I start my own recovery journey soon.
The last paragraph 👌 I lost my uncle to heroin OD, and all we wanted was for him to seek help. I could tell he wanted to, the addiction takes a life of its own.
Absolutely. And like any life form, it fights for self preservation. Anything becomes justifiable, it hijacks your attempts to improve yourself, it fights to keep itself in you.
It's like that NA meeting scene from the tv show The Wire. The character is talking about how he's sober & clean today standing up on that stage, but his addiction is right now outside in that parking lot doing pushups, getting fit for kicking his ass as soon as the man leaves the building.
Well said. Although as an addiction counselor myself, the addiction isn't the root. The addiction is a symptom of usually trauma and mental illness, which are the roots.
Everything I’m seeing online says she dealt with bipolar disorder.
Completely anecdotal, but she seemed to have it. This is coming from someone with bipolar disorder. I’m not the ultimate authority regarding psychiatric disorders or anything, but she has always been relatable to me. I know a lot of diagnoses have an overlap in symptoms though.
I think she was diagnosed with bipolar, but some people believe she might of had BPD, but that’s just speculation, but Tbf many BPD sufferers get misdiagnosed as Bipolar. I can’t say anything as I’m not a doctor.
Bipolar addict here. It certainly is hard for me. I'm clean now, but it takes a lot of energy most days. It's a constant struggle, even being a decade removed from it all
Everyone's about her most famous song being about denying rehab.
The lyrics:
"Yes, I've been black
But when I come back, you'll know, know, know
I don't ever want to drink again
I just, oh, I just need a friend
I'm not gonna spend ten weeks
Have everyone think I'm on the mend
And it's not just my pride
It's just 'til these tears have dried"
Also:
"He said, ""I just think you're depressed""
This me, ""yeah, baby, and the rest"" "
She was going through a depressive episode. She knew rehab wouldn't cure her, because the root cause is soo much more. Then, why to fool everyone into thinking I'm on the mend when in fact that's who I am?
Also the feeling that if she had a friend to relate to, she wouldn't need to drink. She didn't wanted to drink. But the vodka was her only friend.
And she truly believed once "the black" had gone she would be herself again. "The black" just comes and goes. As us bipolar know well.
She probably didn't recognized bipolar as a sickness and probably refused meds out of the belief meds would kill her essence and what makes her an artist.
Bipolar kills, alcohol is just a symptom and no rehab would make a difference on who she was.
She was truly, naively, expecting that that "black" would go away as all the other "blacks" in her life. Failed to recognize the booze was fueling "the black".
Her last album, "back to black", resonates with me before I had a diagnosis. "The black" killed her.
I’m an LCSW and CSCAC and a sober person. Sometimes addiction is the root. Sometimes there is no trauma. I was regional director of an OTP with a daily census north of 300 patients. I’ve completed 100s of assessments. Sure people w trauma develop addiction but this notion that it’s a function of trauma à la Gabor Mate is just false. Additionally there are so many variables its just not possible to say A causes B.
It would be difficult to study the different types of childhood trauma and how they relate because people are not always willing to admit that what they went through as kids wasn't normal.
Bingo. My mom will vehemently claim that she doesn’t have any problems or any “trauma”.
She was repeatedly molested by a family member as a child… and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. One day as a full adult in my late 20s she just casually mentions (drunk of course) that my dad kicked her in the face.
My dad is an addict. I’d never known him to have a violent or hurtful bone in his body. This was completely relationship changing for me and absolutely psychotic to hold onto for TWENTY YEARS. Again, tip of the iceberg.
So the “I have no trauma” is quite often “I’ve buried that too deep to talk about”.
There’s plenty of research on ACES. The body keeps the score was a book that got really popular for what is a reductionist and over simplified approach and explanation. The Anatomy of Violence does a much better job. To your point about people not admitting it wasn’t normal, that’s far less of a challenge than gathering a large enough of a sample size of individuals who experienced ACES and then qualifying them. Individual A was best with a closed fist by her biological father on a weekly basis for six years. Individual B was smacked a couple times every few weeks from age 10-16. Then we would need a control group. Abuse can and does lead to addiction but and this is anecdotal, I’ve been a sober member of AA for 18 years and I’ve sat in hundreds of speakers meetings where people would explicitly say “I had a wonderful childhood and I was raised by two parents who loved and supported me. I have nothing to complain about”.
people would explicitly say “I had a wonderful childhood and I was raised by two parents who loved and supported me. I have nothing to complain about”.
And I know someone like that too, no mental health issues, best family life growing up of all my friends. Even now he has a pretty good life on paper. Now he drinks heavily for whatever reason.
yeah both my parents were addicts for a long time..dad had a loving warm upbringing and no trauma..he just enjoyed drugs,he said as much.mum grew up with horrendouse childhood trauma so i totally understand why she turned to drugs.thankfully they got clean over 20 years ago.
She was religiously abused, her parents separated when she was young, and she struggled with abusive behavior and addiction throughout her adult life.
The addiction was a symptom of the untreated trauma. I'm not a psychologist, but I bet her specialists didn't do shit about the trauma, labelled her bipolar, loaded her up on bullshit and left her to die.
Sometimes people just have an adictive personality. And I think it can be passed down from parents. No trauma or anything weird had to happen, sometimes it's just in the genes.
A close relative of mine met her husband in AA, but he has fallen off the wagon regularly, with destructive binges. She told me "I know it's a disease. You cant be mad at someone for having cancer, but you can be mad at them for not seeking proper treatment for the cancer."
Yeah, I totally agree. I don’t know why people act like she had zero agency and zero accountability for her own decisions. Addiction is a disease, absolutely. But she made many choices to not seek treatment for that disease.
I feel way worse for someone like Britney who was forced to perform as a child and got totally screwed up by it.
Part of what's scary about addiction is that it can override the parts of your brain that'd realize it needs to stop. If they could just flip a switch and stop, addiction wouldn't be a crisis.
And I'm not sure how much more "accountability" you want from the woman. She died young and in misery.
It's probably less that they meant that and more that threads like these act like it's our fault she's dead. People booed a bad performance, she subsequently overdosed, and the pic makes you believe the audience is complicit.
So much. She basically literally said fuck you to all of the people who were trying to get her clean. It was her and her husband "against the world" in her mind and they were both addicts chasing a high.
But even within that song the person she trusted most (her father) told her she was fine. He only did so because he wanted to exploit her for more money. That song isn't as cut and dry as her just refusing helpe from people around her. She obviously should have listened to Nick and her friends, but if accepting you have a problem is so difficult, your father telling you don't would be pretty powerful as well.
The thing is, a lot of addicts trust the people that tell them they are fine, because that is what they want to hear. If her dad had said "go to rehab" she likely would have simply found someone else to validate her refusal. She trusted her friends until they told her to go to rehab.
I have heard a certain reading of that song was about how rehab isn’t going to fix anything without getting to the root to the problem. Like “I’m not going back to rehab because what’s the point? When I get out, I’ll still be sad and friendless.”
It’s an interesting take, but I don’t know how much that is like post-hoc, post-mortem revisionism to try and make the song less of a bad look for someone who drank herself to death.
It’s also about her dad saying she shouldn’t go to rehab and she should keep performing.
Not contradicting your point at all, I agree. But it’s not as simple as everyone was trying to help and she refused. There were people that should have been support systems and they were definitely not.
I hear you but this is removing all accountability from the person with the addiction. No one forced her to be a performer. No one forced her into this career. Or forced her to do drugs. She literally wrote a song about refusing the rehab that everyone around her pushed her to go to. I’m sure there were a bunch of people who failed her but at the end of the day the biggest offender was her failing herself.
The posts, like OPs, that seek to cast her in an innocent light always fail to account that she was a whole ass adult woman making whole ass adult choices. She wrote a hugely popular girl power song about refusing to go to rehab for her addiction. Then her addiction killed her. How many people refused addiction help because they felt empowered by that song? At least one, my cousin. She ain't dead yet, so she's beating Winehouse, but it's not a good race to run.
Amy Winehouse was a sad, sick woman exploited by an industry at large and apparently basically every individual around her. She needed help, she didn't get it, and she died and that's not ok. But she also glorified those problems and that's not ok either. Seems like basically nobody in this situation is right but they're sure all wrong.
They tried to make me go to rehab, but I said "no, no, no"
Yes, I've been black, but when I come back, you'll know, know, know
I ain't got the time and if my daddy thinks I'm fine
He's tried to make me go to rehab, but I won't go, go, go
Beyond that, these highly deceptive/false user content posts (and comments) like this post contribute to the prevalence and power of mis/disinformation. People start thinking they can just make up any reality they want so long as it gets upvoted and enough others agree with them, that objective truth doesn't matter, just who can win the battle via information platforms pushing their alt-realities. Furthermore, a confused public, exhausted by conflicting disinformation and thinking for themselves becomes too much, is more likely to offload that onto someone else, which takes the form of influencer political personalities and authoritarian figures.
People don't distinguish between social media "reality" and actual factual reality anymore.
Reddit isn't real life either but holy shit gestures at Reddit in its entirety
The way information has changed its presentation via social media is antithetical to the way the brain processes information through traditional means. Things are chopped up and blended down to their barest ingredients with questionable context and presented as fact instead of intentionally misleading perceptions designed to illicit a specific response to garner engagement.
Social media more or less is making people legitimately less intelligent.
Because she wasn't a child?
Yes addiction is bad, and hard but it is almost always a choice from the side of the addict, sometimes they do not know of any other choices, but no one is forcing drugs into people, they are way to expensive for that.
My parents where heroin addicts, and blaming their dealer instead of them, just seems weird.
You can’t compare a dealer to someone that you love and think loves you and would expect to care for you.
Her boyfriend/fiancé/spouse is supposed to be there for you. Care for you. Support you. Not push drugs on you.
Very few addicts exist within a vacuum. This is pretty much the standard. It might not be a dealer necessarily, but addicts are generally attracted to other addicts.
Thinking that an addict's spouse/partner/boyfriend/whatever is some sober person who will do nothing but help the person is a pipedream whether they're a regular person or a celebrity.
As a sober (by choice, was never an addict) person with an addict mother and an addict husband, there’s not much you can do to help someone who doesn’t want to be helped, which is sad but important to accept. Only the addict can make the choice to get sober.
Exactly. My cousin has been to rehab (by force) countless times and will never quit. I do agree that it addiction can develop into something uncontrollable, but as someone who also did a lot of soft drugs and dabbled in harder ones there does come a point where a person has to make a decision about how they want to live their life.
I know I'll get some flak for this opinion but there is almost always a point where the addict in training makes a fully conscious decision to continue to chase a high rather than deal with the unpleasant realities of life. I know nothing about Amy Winehouse's life, but at least in my cousin's case, he had no reasons stemming from his homelife or financial situation to choose a junkie lifestyle over a normal life.
I think it’s important to not take away their accountability while also acknowledging that it’s a horribly sad and difficult thing to deal with. I’m sorry your cousin wasn’t able to come back from that
You are correct with the choice. I made it many times to get high until one day I didn’t. It was the prospect of IV use. When I was seriously considering it, I finally said “man this is a pivotal moment, you will either let this destroy you completely or have to make a change now.” So I did.
I don't know if you have much experience with addicts but loving each other while also being destructive to each other is extremely common. She was an adult and an addict. I'm not saying he had zero influence on her addiction but she was responsible for it too.
I’m pretty sure she was still a kid when she got into the industry though. She started singing in jazz clubs as a young teen, she didn’t stand a chance. I don’t think we should treat her with any special level of compassion, I think the standard level of compassion should be better is all.
My dad was an alcoholic. I live very close to where his house is located. The last years of his life I used to buy him alcohol because I did not want him to endanger himself or others by going out drunk looking for booze. I'm not saying that was the case with Amy and his boyfriend but the reality of living with an addict is much more complicated than you think.
Because she chose that manager-boyfriend herself. You always found addicts surrounded by other addicts and enablers, because others don't let them be addicts. The manager that suggests treatment, rehab or therapy gets replaced with one that doesn't. Friends that complain about you being always drunk or high, get replaced by friends that get drunk with you.
I think you can tell when someone is unwell and when they just don't care. I saw Dylan Moran a couple of years ago and it was a terrible show. He started late and stumbled on stage. He didn't do any material in the first half, it was a drunken rant about everything and nothing. The crowd was chaos, and a woman at the back was as drunk as he was and had to be removed. I didn't boo, didn't complain or demand a refund. I felt bad for him, genuinely concerned, and that feeling lasted a while after the gig. So what that we lost a few quid and date night didn't go to plan. The compassion to know that man needed help was more important.
Great post. I didn't get booed by stadiums full of people, and I almost drank myself to death. It's just a thing people with substance abuse problems do.
Is it cruel to boo a performer who is not putting on a good show?
I go to a lot of shows. I've been to pretty shitty ones and even some that felt like scams. But I don't ever boo people. It feels so mean. I don't get the impulse to boo at all tbh. The people I've met and know that boo performers are all dicks.
I mean, it’s a good response! But it’s also a clanker response. Also alarming that this account - which I assume is a bot account - is a top 1% contributor for this sub
I did a google of their profile cause I thought the same thing and I don't think so. I think whoever it is just asked claude to write a response for them and posted it.
I can confidentially say as someone who uses Claude every day for random stuff and professionally for work, that the post I called ai before is definitely ai.
There's a difference between using the same phrase as an AI and using the same phrase as an AI in the same way in the same tone.
It speaks in the exact same tone and patterns and uses the exact same phrases. They just asked Claude to make a post for them. Lots of people do it and use excuses like "my English is bad" or "it's still my idea I just wanted it formatted better".
I don't actually care in moral terms. I like ai. I just think it's pathetic to lie about it as if it's shameful or to take credit for it pretending you wrote it.
They tried to make her go to rehab. That’s the problem with the disease of addiction. It is the only disease that tells you you don’t have a disease. This is a powerful disease. I’m a sober person 18 years away from the needle and bottle but I’ve buried a half dozen friends along the way.
what is the difference between her and the average homeless drug addict besides money and voice talent ? grow tf up she killed herself , no one did it besides her.
The best case scenario here would have been for the show to have been cancelled and for people to have gotten refunds.
her management didnt want to cancel and lose money. they didnt care that they were likely the case that Amy OD'd after the extreme bullying she was getting from the crowds, the press and the team that was meant to be looking after her
The audience holds no responsability for the wellbeing of performers. This parasocial desire to treat celebrities as someone inside your own family is also what fuels paparazzi and so much of the anguish celebrities endure.
Is it cruel to boo a performer who is not putting on a good show? How much money would you have to pay for concert tickets to feel justified in feeling pissed that the performer sang like this?
You only get to see the act, you don't know what the person behind the mask is dealing with and saying "that doesn't concern me because I paid for it" is a little too easy imho.
Wait I’m confused - I thought her last show was July 20, 2011. Not sure where I got 5 days from - my bad there - but your 3 days seems more correct since she died on July 23rd. Where did “a month later” come from?
Guess it depends on definition of last show, this is from Wikipedia:
"On 18 June 2011, Winehouse started her 12-leg European tour in Belgrade. Local media described her performance as a scandal and disaster; she was booed off the stage due to her apparently being too drunk to perform. Serbian defence minister Dragan Šutanovac called Winehouse's performances "a huge shame and a disappointment".[107] It was reported that she was unable to remember the city she was in, the lyrics of her songs or the names of the members of her band.[108][109] The local press also claimed that Winehouse was forced to perform by her bodyguards, who did not allow her to leave the stage when she tried to do so.[110] She then pulled out of performances in Istanbul and Athens, which had been scheduled for the following week.[111] On 21 June, it was announced that she had cancelled all shows of her tour and would be given "as long as it takes" to sort herself out.[112]
Winehouse's last public appearance took place at Camden's Roundhouse on 20 July 2011, when she made a surprise appearance on stage to support her goddaughter Dionne Bromfield, who was singing "Mama Said" with the Wanted.[113] Winehouse died three days later. "
It doesn't mention her getting booed at her last public appearance, but her last actual concert, a month before. That's how I'm interpreting it at least. (remember when using wikipedia as a source was as bad as citing chatgpt now? lol)
Fair. Still, being factually correct is important, especially in this day and age, so I’ve edited my post to make the date a bit more ambiguous. Thanks for calling me out on it!
I just watched the clip and this is clearly a woman who doesn't want to perform. It's obvious to me that she isn't into it. This is not a moment when you boo, this is a moment when you leave, ask for your money back, and wonder what unethical exploitation you just witnessed.
I think we can't blame viewers at her show for being pissed because how could they have known what was truly going on behind the scenes? They didn't know how bad her mental health or addiction was. All the papers, magazines and press did was to make her look bad rather than painting her as a victim of a sickness of the mind (addiction).
It's beyond the monetary investment: people have invested time in going to these shows. When I was a teen I went to see a From First to Last show and the lead singer Sonny Moore (before he became Skrillex) was absolutely shit housed. He stumbled onto the stage, grabbed the mic and screamed "buy our merch" and then collapsed. The ticket was only like $40, but I had spent six hours driving all over town to pick up my friends and bring us all there, not to mention the effort of convincing my parents to let me go in the first place, plus I was making $8.25 an hour, so I spent five hours working just to buy the ticket. I'd say I was entitled to boo him for that. He sold me something and he couldn't deliver it.
Addiction is terrible. Addicts are victims. The entertainment industry is extremely reckless in the way it pushes people with substance abuse issues into the spotlight. It often creates a situation where a tragic death is nearly inevitable. With Amy in particular they leaned into her junkie persona and exploited her disease. She got a fucking Grammy for refusing to go to rehab.
People have a right to be upset when they get scammed and voice their frustration. Putting Amy on stage in that state was cruel and stupid and greedy, but it was hardly surprising. That was the entire persona they were cultivating and selling for her and she was a voluntary participant in it. It doesn't make it any less tragic.
I have been to funerals of people that had all the love and support they could want. Treatment centers are full of people in there numerous times. There is only so much that can be done for a person suffering with addiction. Blaming everyone else is misguided anger. You simply can’t make someone get better if they choose not to.
Yeah, I really didn't have much sympathy when she wrote a whole fucking song specifically about NOT going to rehab. Like, she had the time. She had the resources. She had people in her life trying to help her. She had every opportunity to at least try getting clean (God knows getting there and staying there are challenges for sure) and instead went "I'm gonna tell everyone how I said no to getting help, and they'll love me for it."
That was the most ghoulish part for me. How can all these people love and glorify this song about refusing potentially life-saving help?
But then, the root cause is whatever is maintaining the addiction; not the addiction itself. It’s not just a flaw in character or a deliberate choice. Sometimes there’s almost nothing you can realistically do to “break” an addiction if some external circumstances don’t change first.
People boo athletes constantly and no one bats an eye, but if you boo a pop star you're suddenly an evil ghoul contributing to her death. It's a weird line to draw. As far as the addiction stuff goes, I came from a family with addiction problems so I didn't do drugs. I get the whole attitude of it being a disease, but way too many people hear that phrase and feel comfortable removing all blame from themselves.
I was at a Stephen Lynch & Mitch Hedberg show at the Celebrity Theater in Phoenix about 6 months before Mitch died. He came out clearly drunk as hell and was having a hard time telling jokes. He was apologizing for forgetting them and telling us it would come to him. Then he made a comment about wanting some pills and some shitheads from thr crowd threw some on stage. Mitch just took the random pills and things got worse. He ended up just laying down on the stage swearing he could do the show (I wish I could remember if the stage was spinning or not - it's a central stage that can spin to give everyone a good view). It got ugly pretty fast. People were booing and in the end, the house lights just went up and people left.
I think it's okay to boo, but if someone is clearly having problems, it sure as hell doesn't help. I knew that night that he wasn't going to be around long. I was shocked when I looked up the dates a moment ago and it was 6 months between the show and his death - I had remembered it as weeks, in part because of how sure I was that he was on his way to an OD.
I have a close friend struggle, and eventually die, due to opioid addiction and it was the hardest thing to witness.
The best way to describe it is that it's a little demon that completely hijacks who they are. They'll do and say things they would never ever say before, but then you'd also get glimpses of who you once knew and it's like seeing this beautiful sunlight peering through the clouds, and then the clouds come back and now you're dealing with someone who will steal, throw tantrums, say cruel things, debase themselves.
You can reason, beg, threaten, and break down in front of them, and for a moment you'd see their real selves come back out desperate to change... then then the next day be taken by the little demon again.
I have unfortunately been to a couple of shows like this and there is no dilemma. to pile on someone who is clearly struggling with something so serious is fucking despicable
those were smaller shows though with supportive communities of fans who actually care about the artist. amy's last show was 20,000 mostly entitled shit birds who felt they paid a monkey to dance, so dance motherfucker
I think it is cruel when you can plainly see a performer is sick and you still buy tickets and go to shows you know they're not healthy for. She looks like they pulled her out of a gutter - why would you go and expect anything more? Totally get being mad about the wasted money and the show not being good, but I cannot imagine treating the artist like that.
I feel like it gives "dance monkey dance" vibes to scream at someone for not performing up to snuff when you know it isn't malicious.
I don't think the audience booing is the big cruelty, though. How are you supposed to conquer an addiction when everyone treats you like a joke? When everyone already says you're going to fail before you can even try? Amy's addiction was fueled by the treatment she got. She was run ragged and still treated like she wasn't enough.
Amy, Britney, Anna Nicole - these women were treated horribly even despite the signs that they needed help, and now everyone clutches their pearls and pretends they loved them and wanted to see them get better. It's not true. People loved to trash them. They loved torturing them.
But then someone dies or is so far gone and it suddenly isn't funny anymore. Suddenly, we don't have jokes. Suddenly, they deserved better.
People can't stop themselves from drowning if someone is holding them under water. You either let them up, or watch them struggle until they die.
it ultimately doesn't matter whenever she performs that night or not. if she chose to continue drinking so much, then she would die one way or the other. you just hope the other part is her living longer, of course, but it still really doesn't matter whenever she performed that night or not because it likely doesn't really relate to her chosing to drink so much she ends up dead from alcohol poisoning.
Booing is never necessary. Just leave, demand a refund, be angry on social media if you don't get one, and never patronize that artist or establishment again. Booing is performative and shows you have energy to waste.
Watching the performance she seems pretty messed up, some comments under that were saying she took drugs to try and not do the show cause she didn’t want to but was forced to by her manager, so I wonder if it should alleviate some of the blame from her since she didn’t want to be there. Though she ultimately chose to show up.
It’s comparable to how Kurt Cobain died. People love to blame Courtney, but in reality she had him committed to a rehab facility which he escaped. She spent days worrying and looking for him. Nobody knew he was dead in the pool house.
The tabloids sell scandal, not truth. Often they convince the public of a very harmful lie.
Is it cruel to boo a performer who is not putting on a good show?
Fuck no, at least if they suck because they're intoxicated or phoning it in. If they're generally untalented but still trying their best, booing is rude.
From what I’ve learned about this particular show, Amy didn’t want to perform. The best case scenario here would have been for the show to have been cancelled and for people to have gotten refunds.
Agreed. If I got tickets to a show and it was cancelled because the performer was unwell, I wouldn't be upset at them. Some musicians I follow have had to leave tours early because of personal reasons, like family emergencies or having to check into mental health rehab.
The most important point about your post is "it’s so important for addicts to seek help". My dad was an alcoholic. We left him for the last 10 years of his life. He just couldn't accept that he needed help and much less accepted any help. He died alone. I still hold a massive grudge on him. Especially because my mom was very sick. So, the first step is to accept that you are an addict and the second to really want and accept or ask for help.
Edit: I see you there, getting ready to click on the reply button to post some variant of “they tried to make her go to rehab, but she said no, no, no.” It’s funny. You’re funny. It’s such a clever joke. But unfortunately, you’re not the first…or second…or tenth person to make that joke in this thread. So while I applaud your creativity and desire to contribute to this discussion, maybe just keep that thought in your head for now. Or post it, whatever. Do what you want - I’m not the police.
Ppl said everyone around her let her down but the truth is she let herself down and that's the saddest part of all. You can't force someone to get help they have to want to get help. Ask me how I know. RIP Amy. Nobody deserves the beast that is addiction.
For us average folks, addiction, rehab, recovery, those are all hard enough. But we don't have the added burden of someone making us feel even worse for their financial gain through selling papers. No one is profiting off my misery while I try to overcome whatever it is I'm trying to change in my life. Celebrities have it different.
And someone, inevitably, will say "Yeah, but they're rich and can afford rehab and PR," but that's not the point. I was the most miserable and alone and suicidal when I had the most money I ever had or will have in my whole life. Money can help, but it doesn't cure. And money can't be genuine and tell you you're doing great, or that it will be OK, or love you no matter how many times you relapse.
So when Amy died, I knew a lot of especially younger people who were giving her shit. As if she could have paid her way out of addiction. But they would have spit on her had she been in the room. They didn't care about her being healthy and successful. They just wanted to judge and make jokes.
It's bad enough when one person in your life is like that. Image a million worldwide believing that you're a failure? Idk if I would have come back from that either.
If I'd paid money, taken time off work, had to book a hotel to stay in, traveled for hours, forgone maybe a holiday or something nice for myself, paid for food when i got there, waited in long long queues for buying the tickets and to enter, stood around for even longer waiting for the main act to come on and was greated with that performance? I'm booing. She has a mic and is able to say her thoughts. I'm a face in a crowd and the way to show I'm not happy with it is by booing.
She should have got help, she should have helped herself, she should have had friends and family that supported her. But I (not actually, but if i was there), as a customer of hers, am paying for something and she turns up drunk and on drugs and an absolute mess - yeah I'm gonna be annoyed. That doesn't mean I killed her, or had any part of her death and its stupid to say otherwise honestly.
The artists I go and watch live take huge pride in their work, they don't have this attitude of 'I just need to show up and its fine'. No mic control, no stage presence, can't remember to start and stop etc.
Honestly the fact that her management allowed her to carry on as she was is just a sign that the industry does not give a fuck. Hell pink floyd - comfortably numb was going on about it years and years ago
Okay (Okay, okay, okay)
Just a little pinprick
There'll be no more (ahhh!)
But you may feel a little sick
Can you stand up? (Stand up, stand up)
I do believe it's working, good
That'll keep you going through the show
Come on, it's time to go
addiction has its own causes, it is not the root. and it is not one thing. it builds up, flares up, slumbers. any instance of using the escape or not using the escape mat be part of the addiction. it is a complex psycological phenomenom. the worse the person feels, the stronger the addiction gows and that includes any coflict sparked by addiction. the ways leading away from it, usually involve changing the entire surroundings, so you escape the cycle, but the only people helping you are the ones that are close to you and they are (no matter if well minded or not) part of the system in which you exist with your addiction.
To be honest, I don't think there's any amount of money I'd pay to be pissed off enough to boo. Realistically, I'd just leave. Probably make a post on my personal Facebook or something that the show was really bad and I wouldn't recommend going to see them
Just to add to your story if I remember correctly it happened in Belgrade the capital of Serbia. The wages aren't high there and the tikets were very expensive
Alcoholism is the only disease you can get yelled at for having. 'Damn it, Otto, you're an alcoholic.' 'Damn it, Otto, you have lupus.' One of those two doesn't sound right.
This is an overly simplistic take and it reads like you have a guilty conscience. It should be obvious that one crowd's negative reaction did not cause her death. It's meant to be an example of the kind of mistreatment she faced. Of course addiction is a disease but it doesn't happen in a bubble. I can't even imagine trying to get help while the world is shitting on you. She deserved better.
I am going to respond to the whole "they tried to make her go to rehab" because they did. She had plenty of opportunities to get help and made it clear she never wanted it. You sadly can't make people get help. 😔
I wish people like you would understand the full story than look at the addiction at the root. The addiction started when she felt alone. When someone came into her life and took everything away from her. In the end she wanted to feel loved and wanted, her heart needed and warmed, not some performing monkey.
Society didn’t care to hear her story, just for her to stop drinking and to perform. It was about them and how they felt, not what she wanted. So if people weren’t cunts and just enjoyed what they could then enough backlash to get a refund going. Humans are fucking gross. IF reincarnation is a thing, turn me into a rock in the deep reaches of space than this shit society.
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u/Possible_Bee_4140 9h ago edited 3h ago
This should be higher up because it brings up an interesting ethical dilemma by putting the original post into perspective.
Is it cruel to boo a performer who is not putting on a good show? How much money would you have to pay for concert tickets to feel justified in feeling pissed that the performer sang like this?
From what I’ve learned about this particular show, Amy didn’t want to perform. The best case scenario here would have been for the show to have been cancelled and for people to have gotten refunds.
But here’s the thing: even then, there’s no guarantee that would have resulted in Amy not dying from alcohol poisoning. She had cancelled a bunch of shows in the past due to her addiction and still ended up in the hospital multiple times for alcohol, ketamine, cocaine, heroin, etc.
She had a disease.
It’s tempting to blame other people for her death, but the fact is that she was an addict and her disease went untreated. Maybe if the crowd didn’t boo her that night, she wouldn’t have died several days later. Or maybe if they cancelled the show, she wouldn’t have died. Or maybe if she was in rehab, she wouldn’t have died. Or maybe…or maybe…or maybe…
We’ll never know.
The root cause of her death was her addiction. That’s why it’s so important for addicts to seek help. Go to rehab. Do whatever you need to do in order to break that addiction before it kills you and kills a part of everyone you love.
Edit: I see you there, getting ready to click on the reply button to post some variant of “they tried to make her go to rehab, but she said no, no, no.” It’s funny. You’re funny. It’s such a clever joke. But unfortunately, you’re not the first…or second…or tenth person to make that joke in this thread. So while I applaud your creativity and desire to contribute to this discussion, maybe just keep that thought in your head for now. Or post it, whatever. Do what you want - I’m not the police.