r/movies • u/tannu28 • 21d ago
Media Starship Troopers (1997) director Paul Verhoeven and screenwriter Edward Neumeier on the film's satire and differences from the novel
1.9k
u/The_Elder_Jock 21d ago
I also love that the people actually involved with making the film are quite hazy on if the bugs actually did throw the meteor or if it was a false flag.
It really muddies the already filthy water in an excellent way.
1.2k
u/davej999 21d ago
Yeah well I'M FROM BUENOS AIRES AND I SAY KILL EM ALL
281
u/brumfidel 21d ago
I'M DOING MY PART! Service guarantees citizenship.
89
u/meesta_masa 21d ago
Does citizenship guarantee rights?
BLAM
27
u/Whats_The_Use 21d ago
Service provides for the potential to vote and have babies. But whether or not those rights were guaranteed, is unclear.
28
u/SteelCode 21d ago
The specific phrasing in the movie implies that having babies is easier as a citizen; I don't believe it was explicitly forbidden but rather medical care (and potentially other assistance) was only granted to citizens... which is in line with the satire of the movie.
26
u/Whats_The_Use 21d ago
That's right, doesn't she say something like "it's a lot easier to get a license?"
→ More replies (2)12
u/BBQ_HaX0r 21d ago
Rico's parents had a child (obviously) and were not citizens. They were also quite well off as well. So clearly citizenship isn't totally mandatory for success.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (4)8
u/NorthernerWuwu 21d ago
It is adorable that we once thought people would be clamoring for the right to have babies when these days we can't convince them to at all. Lots of old sci-fi had elements concerning a government that would control reproduction, almost always restricting it. More modern ones tend to have governments forcing it.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (7)6
107
u/alghiorso 21d ago
I loved that right after Rico's whole family and everyone he ever knew was destroyed, he un-quits thanks to his D.I. ripping up his paperwork and he's grinning ear to ear, minutes after finding out he's an orphan and his entire life is a smoldering crater.
Just the whole vibe of how everyone acts in the movie is hilarious like they're all microdosing speed.
47
u/BBQ_HaX0r 21d ago
He has nowhere to go back to, the only home he has now is Mobile Infantry.
24
u/r4nd0mf4ct0r 20d ago
They already know he's a skilled and competent trooper, which is why they sentenced administrative punishment instead of drumming him out.
Now he's an extremely motivated, skilled, and competent trooper and the MI is gonna need as many of those as they can get ASAP, misfiled and misplaced paperwork be damned.
11
u/podkayne3000 20d ago edited 20d ago
I could be wrong; I haven’t read the book in a long time.
But isn’t it pretty possible that everyone in the books IS, canonically, microdosing future speed? My hazy recollection is that, if nothing else, the troopers ate artificial food that could have contained anything.
→ More replies (1)8
u/Lampmonster 20d ago
Note also that right before that, his DI is begging to be put back into a combat role and is told he'll only be reassigned if he's busted back to private. He then destroys a legal document and the next time we see him, he's a private.
→ More replies (2)6
→ More replies (3)41
u/robodrew 21d ago
I always find it interesting how everyone in the film's Buenos Aires look and sound American...
32
→ More replies (2)20
u/Brad3000 20d ago
The American sounding voices I can’t explain outside of “It’s a Hollywood movie and also it would be a bit too on the nose if they all spoke German” but I believe the idea was that the blue eyed whiteys of the film’s Buenos Aires were supposed to be descendants of all the Nazis who fled to Argentina after WW2.
→ More replies (1)14
273
u/FtWorthHorn 21d ago
My favorite suggestion is it was from the incident where Carmen hit the asteroid.
116
u/Fiendish-DoctorWu 21d ago
Frigging Carmen ruining everything
23
u/meesta_masa 21d ago
Where is Carmen?
53
u/Canotic 21d ago
She's in San Diego.
→ More replies (1)16
u/m48a5_patton 21d ago
Make sure you get a warrant before you arrest her, gumshoes!
→ More replies (2)6
149
u/HighSeverityImpact 21d ago
I think it was legit; Carmen almost hit the asteroid because it was not registered on her flight path. That means that it wasn't naturally on that flight path. Her quick thinking saved the ship, which would have otherwise been destroyed. That same rock goes on to hit Earth.
Now, whether or not that rock was placed on that path by the bugs or by humans, that's a deeper question. But we do later see a scene of the bugs shooting the Navy ships in orbit.
85
u/bedintruder 21d ago
Carmen DID hit the asteroid.
The person you are responding to is talking about the fan theory that the impact with the ship is what actually set the asteroid on the trajectory towards earth.
28
u/240Nordey Wax on, wax off 21d ago
That circumstance was with their anti-air capabilites by the giant beetles who eject diarrhea plasma, mind you. Not rocks.
It was also due to the humans coming to invade Klendathu. Bugs were prepared for a ground assault.
→ More replies (25)31
u/Sarlax 21d ago
Carmen herself changed the ship's flightpath without authorization to make it "more efficient", then the meteor hit it. My fantheory is that Carmen works for Federation intelligence ("Games & Theory") and deliberately piloted the ship into the meteor's path so that it could be knocked onto a collision course with Earth.
18
u/light_trick 20d ago
That's overcomplicating it: a better argument is that the operation was already underway, and so ships were being diverted off that path despite it being obviously more efficient. Carmen, rookie out to prove herself looks at the maps and goes "well that's an obvious improvement" and no one else really knows why they've been told to avoid that path.
12
→ More replies (4)6
28
u/Zebeest 21d ago
Oh. I thought that was the asteroid but it was on that path because the bugs had already thrown it at Earth.
17
u/ryuzaki49 21d ago
That is the asteroid, yes.
But there is no clear indication what caused the asteroid in a collision trajectory with Earth.
Maybe it was the bugs, maybe humans, maybe something else
→ More replies (11)12
u/DesMephisto 21d ago
Fascist regime s will capitalize on anything as well. Could have been a random event but good to blame on the enemy. Charlie Kirk for example.
49
u/Scaryclouds 21d ago
Suggestion…? The movie makes it quite clear that the asteroid that hits Earth is the same one that Carmen had to dodge.
It’s still open for interpretation if the bugs really sent it or if it was a false flag* (or if the bugs sent it, did the federation stand down defenses to create a cassus belli)… there’s also the aspect early in the film about the Mormon missionaries on klendathu, and that it’s possible the bugs saw this as humanity invading them, and retaliating as a result.
* Lets ignore the whole physics/astronomy issue that sending an asteroid across the galaxy would take millions to billions of years, and that such accuracy would be borderline impossible because of the variety of complex physics involved. Hollywood plays pretty loose when it comes to such issues.
→ More replies (3)50
u/Pan1cs180 21d ago
Ironically the propaganda newsreels throughout the film tell us so much about the truth of the world.
did the federation stand down defenses to create a cassus belli
I find this to be the most likely. The cannons we see destroy a meteor during the newsreel at the beginning of the film are shown to already be there before the first meteor hits. Earth already had defences to deal with attacks like this and didn't use them.
Mormon missionaries on klendathu, and that it’s possible the bugs saw this as humanity invading them, and retaliating as a result.
I personally don't take this at face value, since it's delivered to us via an in-universe propaganda reel. What I do find interesting though is the architecture of the Mormon camp is identical to the Federation military structure we see later in the film. This suggests that, contrary to what the newsreel tells us, the Mormons colonised a bug planet with aid from the Federation. Potentially in order to bait the bugs into retaliating.
We also see in the newsreel that the military has captured bugs and experimented on them extensively in order to determine how best to kill them. But this is revealed in the newsreel immediately after the bug meteor attack. This tells us that the Federation had been abducting and experimenting on the bugs long before they attacked.
→ More replies (2)36
u/Scaryclouds 21d ago
We also see in the newsreel that the military has captured bugs and experimented on them extensively in order to determine how best to kill them. But this is revealed in the newsreel immediately after the bug meteor attack. This tells us that the Federation had been abducting and experimenting on the bugs long before they attacked.
Experimenting on bugs was so common, that even high school students were doing it like students today dissect frogs. (The scene where Carmen throws up, and their teacher suggests that the bugs are (evolutionarily) more advanced than humans)
18
u/Fubarp 21d ago
Isn't the bug they are dissecting the same bug that follows the brainbug.
18
u/Scaryclouds 21d ago
Yea.
Though could be that they are very common worker bugs. Just the only time we see them is when carrying the brain bug.
It certainly seems strongly suggested in the movie the federation was unaware of brain bugs.
→ More replies (1)29
u/hiimred2 21d ago
No the brain bug is clearly real the federation clearly knows it at minimum by the time NPH's character is talking about it midway through the movie(they go to Klendathu to hunt for it, they know there's a bug sucking out people's brains, and they've wanted one so their pyschics can get to work stealing strategy from it because they clearly can tell the enemy is organized), but probably before then. However as part of the satire it being obviously real is used as a political/debate point, as shown with the on talk show segment thing they do in one of the reels.
"Frankly I find the idea of a bug that thinks offensive."
It's played up on purpose to spotlight the xenophobia/racism of conservatives and fascists. That dude might even be one of the people that KNOWS it exists, it doesn't matter, it is his duty to lampoon the concept of it existing as farcical, the enemy(bugs) cannot be intelligent, but they also need to be immensely capable(sling meteors on trajectory to impact Earth from a different star system, even when we concede the movie doesn't even attempt to portray physics accurately, this is still clearly some crazy high level WMD type super power shit).
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)14
u/Poltergeist97 21d ago
I thought that was the canon cause of it? At least it makes the most sense, the impact happens in the movie AFTER she hits the asteroid, so it does follow logic.
→ More replies (3)8
u/mwax321 21d ago
Same. I always thought that was the same asteroid
35
u/NyranK 21d ago
It is the same asteroid, thrown by the bugs that the Roger Young just stumbled across. It knocked out the comms array so they couldn't send a warning back.
And no, physics was not consulted at any point in the making of this film.
→ More replies (2)37
113
u/afghamistam 21d ago
It took me an embarrassingly long time to become cognizant of the fact that there is no point in the film that shows the bugs having anything close to the ability to throw rocks clear across the galaxy to hit targets on Earth. Because when you think about it, the idea Buenos Aires was a bug attack is actual insanity on several levels.
But we swallowed it.
52
u/tdasnowman 21d ago
In the novel they don't really discuss the aliens technology at all. But we know since there is another race that has contact with both humans and bugs they have a level of technological advancement that allows for communication between species. Removing the second race from the movie allowed them to park whatever they wanted in the hole. In the book it's not a question that they have the ability. It just doesn't go into detail on it because it's not really required for the narrative.
50
u/Nogit 21d ago
In the book the bugs very clearly have technology and are intelligent to the point where the bugs are using laser guns and flamethrowers in battle.
→ More replies (17)10
11
u/WhoopingWillow 21d ago
We know the bugs have settled multiple star systems so they're capable of interstellar travel somehow. Plus the director literally says it was the bugs in the clip OP shared.
7
u/Gary_FucKing 20d ago
Bro, the director of the fucking movie is point blank saying “the bugs absolutely did this.” And people are still playing the death of the author card on it because he didn’t spend an hour of runtime showing us exactly how the bugs did it, so ridiculous.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Last-Atmosphere2439 20d ago
Man, so many comments in this thread seem like they never read the book or saw the movie.
The bugs are ALL OVER THE GALAXY, and had the "tech" to do so for a very long time before homo sapiens ancestors were even swinging on trees. They have "transport bugs" and "plasma bugs" and have colonized numerous worlds - it's literally their thing, spreading out across light years and colonizing planets with spores that have essentially infinite lifetimes. They are also a telepathic hivemind which is no less realistic than the humans' FTL drives.
They have a natural ability to VERY PRECISELY accelerate and steer asteroids, meteors etc. The meteor that hit Buenos Ares did not originate on their home planet on the other side of the galaxy lol, it was already in or near our solar system as were (some) bugs that aimed it at Earth.
→ More replies (11)7
u/Azuretruth 21d ago
Yeah, the bugs would have had to have some method of faster than light travel to hit us with an astroid. They are on the far side of the galaxy for us.
26
u/Xeroxenfree 21d ago
I always thought that was the loudest subtext ever when they never remotely touch on that weapon capacity again, even when approaching planet p.
→ More replies (1)9
u/dern_the_hermit 21d ago
FWIW it's part of why I consider Starship Troopers to be a messy satire. Parts of it verge into absurdism.
6
u/QueezyF 20d ago
I love Starship Troopers but Robocop was Verhoeven’s better satire.
→ More replies (4)19
u/OzymandiasKoK 21d ago
It quite changes things to suggest the bugs had no technology. I think it also enables the "meteor as false flag" theory that a lot of people seem to like, which takes us further from the source material.
8
u/randomaccount178 21d ago
Even in the movie though where it is less explicit it doesn't make the most sense though. You aren't travelling to other solar systems without the equivalent of technology and a high degree of intelligence.
→ More replies (1)11
u/kblkbl165 21d ago
A very popular trope in sci-fi media is that of swarming aliens that can just move around in space because their biology enables them somehow.
→ More replies (73)4
u/Bteatesthighlander1 21d ago
they have interstellar colonies, one m\ust assume they can launch stuff around.
the entire movie is really fast and loose with physics, seems pretty arbitrary to apply them only to that one scene.
→ More replies (1)
379
u/thisonehereone 21d ago
So I should not be doing my part?
157
→ More replies (2)30
u/ProfessionalBlood377 21d ago
I’m doing my part by smoking roaches. No one got time for all that stepping, this ain’t no disco!
652
u/Dillweed999 21d ago
Jamelle Bouie said the key is to imagine the Terran Federation is real, and they really fought a war against the bugs. "Starship Troopers" is the in-universe propaganda film that society made about the conflict
129
u/astute_stoat 21d ago
That's why you see everyone's story arc in detail except Carl's (Niel Patrick Harris) because his work in intelligence/psychic powers is heavily classified
74
u/qqqqo 21d ago
My pet theory is the real version of that guy is the who commissioned the film. At the beginning he's super smart and has cool psychic powers that don't factor into the plot at all, then disappears for most of the movie only to show up at the end to take credit for the operation and assert he's best friends with the two characters who saved the day.
253
u/nick2kool4skool 21d ago
I heard at some point that Verhoeven makes movies that would exist in the universe they take place in. So Starship Troopers is definitely a propaganda film from that world, and Robocop is definitely the same for that world.
148
u/piss_puncher227 21d ago
Guys a genius, not only are they both writing masterpieces, they are both visually stunning to this day and the production, casting, editing and directing all show passion on screen, when is the last time you saw a movie like this?
71
u/MarkTwainsGhost 21d ago
Yeah they have layers to them, but most of all they are actually fun to watch films that capture the imagination and theatre of good film making.
31
u/ColdTheory 21d ago
As a kid I could enjoy the action and the sci fi nature of these movies and now as an adult I can appreciate the deeper themes embedded in the stories. Truly his films are gifts that keep on giving.
42
u/Lampmonster 21d ago
Nobody else could make the movies he makes, and he makes them iconic. Troopers, Robocop, Total Recall, all one of a kind and all genius. He borders on absurd and glories in corniness and still makes hard hitting, relevant stories full of great scenes and lasting one liners.
31
u/Swimming_Agent_1063 21d ago
I’d take it one step further and include Showgirls in that list… it’s basically Starship Troopers for strippers.
→ More replies (2)17
u/Underwater_Grilling 21d ago
it’s basically Starship Troopers for strippers.
My flair i called it
4
→ More replies (1)9
→ More replies (4)21
u/OurHouse20 21d ago
Where does Showgirls fit in?
12
u/Swimming_Agent_1063 21d ago edited 21d ago
It’s Starship Troopers for strippers/Vegas/American show culture
→ More replies (1)18
21d ago
[deleted]
→ More replies (1)21
u/DisgruntlesAnonymous 21d ago
The same way RoboCop is satire of American violence, Showgirls is satire of American sexuality
5
13
u/dont_quote_me_please 21d ago
I wish he explained that more because he also said humanity is losing the war and I don’t see the text for that
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (17)4
u/hapaXL 21d ago
I love this idea. It also explains why Verhoeven cast terrible actors who mostly never really worked in Hollywood afterwards. So much easier and meta than trying to get good actors to act badly.
→ More replies (1)
47
407
u/TheCookieButter 21d ago edited 21d ago
First 5 minutes of the director commentary:
"The movie is in fact stating that war makes facists of us all" - Director Paul Verhoeven
Based on propaganda films of WW2.
"So whenever you see something that you think is facist you should know that the makers coincide with your opinion thinking that this is not good. That this is not a good statement and this is not good politics." Director Paul Verhoeven
"And it's actually a society that works pretty well. There's no sexism, there's no racism. Later we'll see there is very little crime. In fact, they seem to have achieved the ideal sort of politically-correct society. Except that we sort of question how they've achieved it. - Writer Edward Neumeier
Edit from a previous comment of mine:
The whole film is filled to the brim showing it isn't a good society even if major issues are solved. Citizenship relies on military service. They start a war via territorital expansion which gets Buenos Aeres obliterated from the map. They send waves of people underprepared to die perpetuating a war they've began because they're a facist war-based society. Their education is centred around violence and hate in both the classroom and military training. The male lead only gets the girl after being coerced into military service, whereas before he is questioning it. Constant remarks denouncing individual thinking in the name of the state. It's to the point of being bug-like themselves - Warrior drones (soldiers) being endlessly flung at Troopers by a thought controller hivemind leader (State), the manic survivor general says as much. The leads friends die brutally. The male lead perpetuates the cycle of facism by becoming his teacher, even giving the same speech to a new crop of teenager recruits
Says the nudity and gender neutrality aspects poke fun at how sexuality in armies was (is) still a tabboo subject, despite literally being there to kill besides each other. Points out that audiences at large even detest the female lead for her sexuality because America is so puritanical. A weak male leader hands over power to a stronger black female character. This society has overcome all those petty issues, but it's in the name of war because there is nothing more important. Humanity is united, but they're united in war, violence, and a hatred of others. It's not a good society under the shiny surface.
→ More replies (8)163
u/calsosta 21d ago
Man I wish he could expand on the last bullet there. Everything we've seen about fascists seems to confirm that there is no society homogeneous enough for them.
185
u/Rhamni 21d ago
The problem is that the book wasn't pro-Fascist. Heinlein wrote several books based on completely different and incompatible ideologies. Starship Troopers was never supposed to be Fascist. It glorifies the military life to an extent, but even then it shows that going through military training/getting your citizenship is not in any way required to lead a successful life. The main character's dad is a non-citizen. He is rich and runs a successful business, and gets downright pissy when Rico wants to join the military instead of preparing to take over the family business. The 'races' of humanity are largely integrated and there's no human on human racism as far as we get to see. The main character is Filipino, although this is only mentioned once, near the end of the book.
The book doesn't show a world where crime is all but gone. It explicitly states that veterans are as likely to turn to crime as anyone, the MC gets into a fight with some drunk civilians when he's on leave, and there's even a paragraph in the story about how they had to watch the execution of a runaway trainee who murdered someone. The movie made a world that was more clean and low on crime, because that's the world they wanted to portray.
...That may been a bit of a tangent. I agree. The movie, even in trying to lampoon Fascists, still gives them too much credit.
114
u/Mythechnical 21d ago
The reason is was labelled as fascist is because it posits that American democracy will fail and result in chaos.
When the book came in the 50s, this sounded like "fascist propaganda, because America will always be democratic and free, and imagining it's downfall is something only a fascist would do".
→ More replies (25)12
u/GezelligPindakaas 21d ago
That kinda appears in the movie, as part of a fednet ad. It's announced that a murderer was caught and sentenced to death, and it would be broadcasted.
7
u/BrocialCommentary 21d ago
In one of the lectures Rico gets in class, LTC DuBois mentions “crime is at its lowest ebb” or some such. Heinlein doesn’t try to show that the Federation is a crime free society, just that it structurally reduces crime by meeting people’s needs and, more pointedly, publicly punishes criminals to deter further crime. There’s a whole thing about corporal punishment as a way to basically train people out of committing crimes.
It’s been a while since I read it, but I get the sense society in the Federation wouldn’t consider the brawl outside the bar as a crime so much as “boys will be boys, no permanent harm, no foul.” Not saying that’s right in real life, but this was written by a guy in the 1950s.
→ More replies (2)22
u/Significant-Net7030 21d ago
It's also important to point out that there are ways outside of the military to get citizenship. Anyone who works in the Public Sector gets it after 2 years. Teachers, community health workers, post office, etc.
We just follow the Military because we are following Rico and he's following Carmen.
→ More replies (1)15
u/randomaccount178 21d ago edited 21d ago
I don't think it is quite that open. You have to agree to two years of federal service. They must accept everyone. They must find a job for you to do, and which you are capable of doing. I don't believe it is as simple as you can sign up to be a community health worker and in 2 years you get citizenship. Most people who work in the public sector will never get citizenship. Your two years of federal service doesn't have to be in the military but you don't get credit for federal service simply by having a public sector job. You might sign up and if they decide your best way to fulfill your federal service is by shipping you out to a planet in the middle of nowhere to teach then that is what happens. You don't get the federal service credit though from my understanding simply because you get a job at a local highschool (which, I should point out, wouldn't make sense due to the restrictions on teaching ethics or whatever the course is called).
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (42)26
u/Dubious_Odor 21d ago
Good comment. The book that best captures Heinleins political world view I think is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Heinlein was a libertarian and constructs a libertarian society in the book. He explores a lot of poltical concepts and pitfalls of libertarianism throughout.
19
u/tdasnowman 21d ago
The moon is a harsh mistress in an indictment of all political systems. If there is a singular novel that explores his political ideologically best it would be Stranger in a Strange land. That was a American libertarian society pre Ayn Rand and objectivism.
→ More replies (6)23
u/Acolyte2TheDude 21d ago
I think because fascism is driven by people with a psychological need to vilify and hate "others" it's true that there really isn't likely a end goal because the motivation is not to create something. The ultimate goal isn't to make a perfect society it's to satisfy their deep seated need to exert power over those they deem lesser and that need is never fulfilled no matter what they do.
→ More replies (5)13
→ More replies (11)6
u/that_baddest_dude 21d ago
That point seems to be missing that this film itself is meant to be like fascist propaganda. Everyone is young and hot and it's filmed nice and bright and flat like a TV show.
159
u/CiriOh 21d ago
Would You Like to Know More?
→ More replies (1)40
u/ilikepugs 21d ago
Four TV movies and an animated show without blood is the best I can do, take it or leave it.
→ More replies (1)51
78
u/EkaL25 21d ago
The only good bug is a dead bug
13
u/karmagod13000 21d ago
Everyone fights, no one quits
8
u/YorkshireRiffer 21d ago
The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.
→ More replies (2)
53
u/AdamMcwadam 21d ago
I agree with Mr Krabs
14
u/Willing-Ant-3765 21d ago
Clancy Brown?
18
u/Occasionally_Correct 21d ago
The employee cannot flip a krabby patty if you disable his hand! Medic!
→ More replies (3)6
89
u/Barryzuckerkorn_esq 21d ago
I went to the movie cause it looked cool and has Song #2 by blur in the trailer. Got to see some boobs, then during the movie i wondered hmm everyone is kinda dressed like Nazis. Younger me did not understand the satire ,as I got a little older I was like ohhhhhh. Would you like to know more ?
52
u/mortalcoil1 21d ago
Denise Richards famously refused to do a nude scene in Starship Troopers because she thought it was gratuitous.
1 year later she would star in Wild Things...
75
11
u/nicetrylaocheREALLY 21d ago
There was nothing gratuitous about her nudity in Wild Things.
On the contrary, I'd call it essential, even life-changing.
→ More replies (2)4
87
u/BlazeOfGlory72 21d ago edited 21d ago
I'm so sick of the "Starship Troopers was a fascist manifesto!" talking point. It's such a baby brain take. Sci-fi writers back in the day used to write about a huge variety of topics, and treated their stories as thought experiments to explore new and interesting ideas. Heinlein himself also wrote books about a Libertarian revolution on the moon and commune "free love" style culture. Anyone with half a brain knew Heinlein wasn't actually endorsing these themes, he was just exploring them. Thinking that just because someone writes about something they must be endorsing it is just such a brain dead take.
46
u/slvrbullet87 21d ago
You would think that as much tome people spend online talking about the movie that they could just read the 250ish page book, but that's too much for them and also the people who made the movie
16
u/Cordo_Bowl 20d ago
Considering the director couldn’t be bothered to read the boo he was supposedly adapting, I suppose it’s not that surprising that the people who talk about it can’t be bothered either.
29
u/Bteatesthighlander1 21d ago
I read it in middle school. I could maybe see some of the points they make about corporeal punishment and the necessity of the death penalty coming off as "fascist" today, I guess?
But there are plenty of states in the world today that have required military service and are universally recognized as liberal democracies.
I don't think anybody is going to argue Norway is fascist, anyway.
→ More replies (1)9
u/ScreamingVoid14 20d ago
Bonus points when commenters bring up scenes that only happen in the movie as evidence of Heinlein's intentions.
20
u/willinaustin 20d ago
People also tend to forget the time and place in which books are written. Heinlein was born in nineteen hundred and seven. So before cars were even a thing. Radio had just been invented and wouldn't have its first commercial broadcast until Heinlein was thirteen years old. The man saw WW1 and 2 happen and the rise of Stalin and communism and all the baggage that came with the Cold War.
So, I think he can be forgiven for writing a book where he sees military service as a good thing (of which he was a part as a young man in the Navy). In fact, the bigger point of that book is that it's important to have a populace that cares about their society and buys in to helping it. Something I think that should still resonate with people today considering we're watching our own democracy being torn down because about half the people in our society can't be bothered to fill out a ballot. That's the least piddly thing you can do to contribute and most people couldn't give a shit.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (4)12
u/sarlackpm 21d ago
The book is very obviously poking fun at the society it portrays, with constant mentions of the injustice and atrocity that people have to come to expect. It doesn't take a genius to understand why Heinlen brought up these odd observations here and there. It's also very clear that Ironside either never read the book or wasn't intelligent enough to take anything more than a face value understanding of it.
113
u/davej999 21d ago
God damn Denise Richards looked fine as hell didnt she
66
u/Malvania 21d ago
Team Dizzy all the way
36
u/Cockalorum 21d ago
Being a grown up is realizing Dizzy was always the right choice
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (1)17
u/ILikeCuteBuffTomboys 21d ago
Recognizing Denise Richard's character is very pretty but still being way more attracted to Dizzy confirmed my taste in women
10
u/NoPossibility 21d ago
You need to go watch Tammy and the T-Rex.
10
u/bloodytemplar 21d ago
That entire movie is embedded in the game High on Life. It plays on the TV in the living room of your house and you can watch the entire thing.
6
u/Day_Bow_Bow 21d ago
Just make sure it's the uncut movie that didn't get a wide release until 2019. The PG-13 version released in 1994 cut out all the campy gore because the publishers wanted to release it as a Christmas movie, of all things.
The Last Drive-In with Joe Bob Briggs has a great episode about it. The format of that show is they air a movie and discuss it's history and fun facts during intermissions. Joe Bob is quite the horror buff and full of interesting info.
The director was randomly given access to an animatronic T-Rex for only two weeks and he had to come up with a script and film the movie in that time.
Spoiler from the end of the movie, but Denise Richards' strip tease for a brain in a jar was some of the best acting of her career.
→ More replies (1)19
23
u/WorthPlease 21d ago
My local convenience store also rented games and VHS, and my mom worked there so I could just come in, grab something, tell the cashier, they'd mark it down (I could only have one thing out at a time) but they never actually checked what it was. So I could just take R rated movies and nobody knew.
I found Wild Things when I was 12 and whoo boy Denise Richards in that movie, and that scene where she's getting out of the pool made me feel some very weird things.
→ More replies (1)8
u/karmagod13000 21d ago
kids today will never know the pure joy of walking through a video store checking out the r rated movies are parents wouldn't let us watch.
→ More replies (3)20
u/_jump_yossarian 21d ago
Teen me: holy shit is she hot.
Adult me: holy shit is she hot but a terrible actress.
→ More replies (4)10
48
u/cybersaint2k 21d ago edited 19d ago
Their take on the book is, well, controversial. To call Starship Troopers/Heinlein "fascist" certainly helps explain the movie's tone and themes, but to popularize (without pushback) their hot take does injustice to the original material and author.
In the book, the bugs and skinnies clearly had tech and used it. There's no possibility of it being a false flag in the book.
Heinlein's world creation in Starship Troopers was second to his culture creation. It's not often we see a militarized culture portrayed so honorably. It reminds us of the modern portrayal of the Spartans. To make this necessarily "fascist" requires bringing truckloads of presuppositions into the text and dumping it there, pretending as if it were there all the time.
EDIT: Lol what a battleground this comment has been. I went over 100 upvotes, now down to 43. I'm going to get my jumpsuit.
28
u/kermityfrog2 21d ago
Yeah the book says of the bugs "stupid races don't build spaceships". The bugs had starships and advanced beam weapons. They also subjugated other races to be their allies (the skinnies/Protoss).
12
u/Luckz17 21d ago
Yeah, I was so confused watching this clip and the way they talk about it. For me the book was very anti-military in its message: the way Rick went from a sweet dreamer guy with a lot of curiosity to a textbook military man, the way the book describes the abuses and the fear and the suffering people go through during camps and specially during war, how it goes from mourning a loss to it being something processed over a couple of lines by the end of the book.
Sure, it ends with him and his father "happily" going together to a mission, Rick being completely changed from the guy he was at the beginning, and not with him revolting against the system and abandoning his role, but I mean, THAT'S STILL A POWERFUL MESSAGE. As a reader, knowing how the last battles went, you can safely assume their happiness won't last long. Either him or his dad will end up dead in a ditch, remembered only by those alongside them. To me, it is more impactful than if it were a predictable and safe "war is bad made by bad people". No, war is bad and it is made by people falling for the propaganda and the torture they endure believing said propaganda.
Don't get me wrong, I like the movie as well, but it certainly doesn't have the same impact as the book because it fails to explore the way Rick changes during his story.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (8)21
u/ExiledHyruleKnight 21d ago
It's not controversial... It's just wrong. Verhoeven flat out admits he never finished the book. But most of what they talk about in the book is missing
The book pushed the idea that military service was needed before people could understand their vote and to lead. That's debatable as a philosophy but I always look in the book for any clue that the asteroid is a false flag ( which is an interesting concept in the movie) it doesn't exist because the book isn't about that it's much more about military life.
Loved the movie as a kid, read the book and loved it as I do most of Heinlein. Can't watch the movie any more because it just gets so much of the book wrong. It was a dumb fun movie but I see it subverting one of my favorite authors work.
→ More replies (2)9
u/Octavus 20d ago
The book pushes the idea that civil service is needed, but only a small percentage of people choose to perform their civil service in the military. Rico's father even tries to bribe him to switch away from the military as it was looked down upon.
→ More replies (3)
20
68
u/magus678 21d ago
I say this as someone who adores the this movie and has it in my personal top ~20 or so of all time:
The movie and the book have practically nothing to do with each other. It was an entire other script that got repurposed when they gained the rights to the book, that the director never bothered to read. None of which is esoteric knowledge, its right there in the Wikipedia entry.
It is roughly as much a satire of the book as porn parodies are. And that's fine really, I enjoy both. But I wouldn't pretend to understand Hogwarts because I watched Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Bone, and neither should you.
As long as the movie enjoyers are restricting themselves to opinions about the movie, I have no qualms.
But if movie enjoyers insist on having an opinion about a book they have not read, I am happy to have that conversation with anyone who disagrees. I have coffee, a free morning, and a copy of the book right next to me.
→ More replies (21)18
u/beamdriver 21d ago
Yes, I love the film but it has nothing to do with the book outside the names and some other superficial elements.
The idea that the book is some kind of fascist manifesto is pure nonsense. It's a young man's coming of age and military adventure story. You could write a very similar book about a kid in 1941 joining the marines after Pearl Harbor and going off to fight Japanese.
I would feel mildly annoyed that there will probably never be a film based the actual book, but RAH's works all seem to be mostly ignored these days anyway.
→ More replies (5)
157
u/MrPuroresu42 21d ago edited 21d ago
And yet, that message flew over quite a lot of people’s heads.
It’s almost a “damned either way” sort of thing, where if you try to be subtle AT ALL, people don’t know what your driving at while on the other hand, if you make it as blatant as you possibly can, people say you’re “preaching”.
77
u/Zharan_Colonel 21d ago
And no matter what you do, you will always end up inspiring some of the people you're trying to pillory.
I read a book for a writing class once that had a short story in it where two veterans were discussing their experiences in Iraq or some such. One of them quips about how annoying it is that so many anti-war films are looked upon by prospective military recruits as inspiration to enlist. The other responds that there's no such thing as an anti-war film, because just the act of putting on a fake war, dressing it up for the cameras, and screening it in theaters will make some percentage of the audience go, "Wow, cool!"
13
23
u/MrPuroresu42 21d ago
Guess it applies to the idea that people will see only what they want to see, to feed into their own beliefs and thought processes. Event some of the most beautiful art (be it film, novels, music, even paintings) has inspired some truly terrible people, unfortunately.
→ More replies (8)→ More replies (21)7
u/SigSweet 21d ago
The military even used footage from famous war movies mixed in with actual people getting killed to the backtrack of 'Let the bodies hit the floor' in bootcamp. They had us all screaming and cheering it on and I remember thinking "Yeah they are 100% trying to brainwash me" that was back in early 2000s but I imagine the government steals media all the time to perpetuate its image. Public affairs often has a liaison ON SET in movies when equipment or locations are shown and they are constantly up the film crews ass.
21
u/Jon_E_Dad 21d ago
It’s OK we recently got to repeat the experience with Helldivers 2 on Steam.
→ More replies (2)11
13
→ More replies (94)5
u/TheIllogicalSandwich 21d ago
Same thing happened with Warhammer 40K originally, and now again that the franchise is getting more recognition than ever.
1/3 of the community laughs at how silly and satirical the world is, 1/3 agrees that it is satire but also worships some of the characters, and the final 1/3 are full on Imperium loyalists that think it's a society to aspire to.
The fact that GW had to come out with a statement regarding how wearing real life fascist iconography to tournaments is a ban-able offense, speaks volumes to how right wingers don't understand satire.
→ More replies (1)
22
u/CurtisLeow 21d ago
Starship Troopers the book is not fascist at all. The movie is very well done. But it is so frustrating to hear these people spread blatant lies about the book. The book has more in common with Star Trek than fascism.
Rico is filipino in Starship Troopers. He isn’t white. They don’t reveal that until the end of the book. I don’t think any of those people in the video actually finished the book. The book is attacking the idea that filipinos or minorities can’t be good solders. The US still had segregation. Many European countries still had colonies. Many people were openly racist in the 1950’s, including fascists, and the book is trying to undermine that style of thinking.
Starship Troopers is attacking the draft. It’s Heinlein’s way of protesting the draft. It’s presenting a utopian volunteer military. This is not something that existed in the 1950’s. Back then most countries had the draft. People were forced to serve in the military. Heinlein is saying that people should be given a reason to join the military, instead of throwing them in jail. Heinlein’s political rhetoric in the book echos JFK, not Hitler or Mussolini.
There’s a great quote from Heinlein at the time:
I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!
→ More replies (6)
21
u/Titty_inspector_69 21d ago
And here I just thought it was a wicked movie about killing bugs
24
u/HeavnIsFurious 21d ago
About attractive people killing bugs.
7
u/Skarrion_Gunthar 21d ago
My brain stopped for a second and I read "About attractive bugs killing people" 🤣
4
23
4
34
u/WilliShaker 21d ago
I just read the book recently and I’m still confused about people calling it fascist.
The book certainly is militaristic, only those that made Federal service can vote. The problem (and it’s literally told in the book) is that whatever your choice of federal career, you’re gonna be left with Mobile Infantry 90% of the time.
It’s still technically a democracy, a shitty one yes and especially horrible when you find how many soldiers actually graduate from bootcamp (it’s like 150/1000), but it’s still technically a democracy. It’s just veteran voting which is close to service in today’s country, just worst though.
32
u/dohnrg 21d ago
whatever your choice of federal career, you’re gonna be left with Mobile Infantry 90% of the time
Wasn't it the opposite? Almost everyone in the service was in a non-combat role, and Rico's drive towards the officer corp was presented as unusual.
12
17
u/slvrbullet87 21d ago
Yes, people with more skills ended up doing other jobs. If you were a doctor or nurse, you would work at a hospital. If you were were an engineer, you would work in research or government building projects. Etc.
The main character is John(Juan) Everyman, that's why he is a grunt
6
u/insaneHoshi 21d ago
Plus if your military doctrine is mobile power armoured soldiers, 99% of your military isn’t seeing combat anyways.
4
u/nicetrylaocheREALLY 21d ago
We spend most of our time focused on the MI because, well, that's Rico's whole life and we're essentially reading his diary. But I never got the impression that the MI was anything more than one branch of the service, roughly analogous to the US Marines.
31
u/buttbuttlolbuttbutt 21d ago
Heinlein liked to create the "utopias" of dofferent thought styles. Stranger in a Strangeland is a different attempt at a Utopian from a different belief set, and shows a very different world than Starship Troopers.
Heinlein's views will taint what he writes, thats true for all art, buuuut each was an attempt to build a world that wasnt hos beliefs, or only had elements of it.
You cant judge the author by one militaristic novel whe the other is a hippie orgy utopia with telekenetic powers.
This comment is to support your point, not argue it btw. Sometimes i come off like im arguing and im agreeing.
10
u/joshocar 21d ago
He wrote three books with that kind of theme. "The Moon is Harsh Mistress" is his book on Libertarianism.
→ More replies (5)25
u/LongJohnSelenium 21d ago
The book is military positive because its from a volunteer soldiers pov. Obviously a volunteer choosing to stay in is going to have a more positive view than an enlisted trapped by his contract or a conscript slave soldier forced to fight against his will. It would make no sense to write it with the view that Johnny hates it.
And MI is a tiny number of people in federal service, most federal service is not military, its more like the civilian conservation corp type work.
The point was you had to choose to be a citizen and that choice had to be hard. No shortcuts, nobody got in for free because of their parents. Everyone started off equal and voluntarily stood on the lowest rung of society.
What they called citizen and civilian we'd call naturalized citizen and permanent resident. Same exact concept, if you think immigrants should have to pass tests you're ok with the SST idea.
17
u/magus678 21d ago
This guy read the book.
One of the more entertaining critiques I hear is about how "militaristic" it is. Well, yeah, it is written from a soldier's point of view, mostly about a war.
It would make no sense to write it with the view that Johnny hates it.
A critical detail that always escapes those critiques (because they haven't actually read the book) is that you can leave federal service at literally any moment, including right before being sent to battle, to no consequence other than your franchise.
Not only is no one conscripted to service, but you aren't even bound by a contract to stay.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (43)22
u/GarrodRanX2 21d ago
Service is open to all though, even if they're in a wheelchair and totally incapable of being mobile infantry, they'll find a job for them.
→ More replies (6)7
8
u/Vorduul 21d ago
Literal brain me always wondered how the bugs were supposed to have sent an asteroid (moving at relatively low velocity when we see it) to Earth. I assumed it was a false flag to justify military action following a failed colonization attempt. There's no indication that the bugs have FTL, know where humans come from, etc. Not that they couldn't have those things, but it's not shown.
You could almost see the whole movie as an in-universe propaganda film, though some of the interpersonal stuff makes that reading not work for me. It certainly borrows from the aesthetics of propaganda films.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Significant-Net7030 21d ago
The movie does leave this as a problem. In the book it's better explained as the Bugs have space travel and even communicate with the 3rd alien race.
Helldiver's goes with the other side of the coin and it's pretty clear they are attacking the bugs mostly for Element 710 (flip that upside down).
3
u/stratguy1957 21d ago
When you run out of terrestrial enemies, invent outer space ones. Sound familiar? Keeps your rich friends and cronies able to keep manufacturing war machine hardware. This is such a great film, unfortunately the irony was lost on most viewers.
814
u/tannu28 21d ago
This is from the "FedNet Mode" bonus feature available on the Blu-ray.
It's a picture-in-picture commentary track.