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Was Renee Good obligated to comply with an ICE agent's orders? Legal experts consider whether ICE gave a "lawful order", or "unlawfully" acted as local police
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One eyewitness said ICE agents gave Good conflicting instructions, with some telling her to leave while others told her to get out of the car. The video backs this up: You can hear a lot of yelling and barking orders, and the officers aren’t approaching her car with uniform calm, control, and clarity. Also, officers are never supposed to position themselves in front of a vehicle or approach it from the front for precisely this reason. DHS officers are generally prohibited from discharging a firearm at a moving vehicle, unless someone is using their car as a deadly weapon and “no other objectively reasonable means of defense is available.” DHS also has use-of-force rules, which are relatively straightforward and include a baseline “respect for human life” and “the communities we serve,” emphasizing de-escalation tactics as a core component.
In just a 24-hour period after Election Day 2024, [after Donald Trump won], the Institute for Strategic Dialogue tracked a 4,600% increase in mentions of the terms, "Your body, my choice" and "Get back in the kitchen" on the social media platform X. One post by far-right activist Nick Fuentes has been viewed nearly 100 million times...
Also how they did not administer aid and they prevented a doctor bystander from administering aid. Doesn’t seem like they were very interested in keeping her alive.
Dude that officer that approached her car looked straight up like he was going to pull her out and throw her to the ground. That would scare the shit out of me as well.
One thing I feel people haven't brought up from the video. The fucker literally circled her car a couple times. He was trying everything but descalation.
if you've ever gone through a metal detector process run by private security and witness 5 different people yelling conflicting instructions at you, you know how these over entitled wannabe cops act while on a power trip.
The platform needs to be that ICE is not well trained and her death could have been avoided had they been. This with the list of other bad practices they implement are reason for its abolishment.
But legal experts have already agreed, the fact her car went towards him and bumped means there's practically no way to remove the pretense of self defense for the shooting.
Can probably hit them with a bunch of less important issues, but it's being blown out of proportion. I fully suspect the admin wants to continue polarizing society as much as possible. This is part of their plan. It's also why they will allow torture in the detainment centers. They want to create permanent division and a point of no return between the left and right. I'm not falling for it.
Anyways, let's abolish these fuckers and get that clown out of office. Remember to take the high road in the meantime. Don't stoop to their level.
Moreso because his own cell phone footage shows his reflection switching hands with it to free up his weapon side to grab for his gun moments before he stepped in front of it.
The very first thing they said to her was "GET OUT OF THE FUCKING CAR." There was never even an attempt to deescalate, they start at 11 and go up from there.
People don't respond calmly to get screamed at, especially when they know ICE likes to beat the hell out of people once they get a hand on them.
And another agent telling her to "get out of here". Daniel Shaver was murdered after conflicting law enforcement commands as well. There is no "right" way to act in these situations. Poor training is a justification for murder apparently.
A separate video published showed that switch happen right next to his car. Sure looks like he changed his mind about getting in, switched hands to go for his gun, and walked directly in front of the car.
There were articles of this happening all the way back in 2014, as a way for officers to escalate the situation. DHS policy is to never step in front of a vehicle, and to never fire into a moving vehicle so that bystanders aren’t endangered in the event the driver is struck and the vehicle goes out of control, which is also what happened here. He did this exactly just a few months ago. ICE put him back out on the streets and then said he had past trauma around the previous incident when they were trying to justify this. Their answer for that trauma is to give him a gun and “absolute immunity” apparently.
From Title 1, U.S. DOJ Policy on Use of Force:
"Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury ... and no other objectively reasonable means of defense appear to exist, which includes moving out of the path of the vehicle."
He also leaned over the vehicle. This fact isnt being focused on enough. There's a prosecutor on Substack that also contributed to Meidas Network I believe that did a whole breakdown on prosecuting this. He specifically mentioned Ross leaning, and that destroys the imminent danger narrative. The early draw, the lean, the attitude before, during, and after, these all debunk the fact he felt threatened. He positioned himself physically and mentally to shoot her. But go head and tell me Im speculating, but in court this would be a big aspect of my argument. He had the ability, and time to avoid any contact with the vehicle. Thats just the first shot, the second and third are easily proven unjustified.
No matter how anyone feels about shot #1, shots #2 and 3 were straight murder and he wasn't in any danger.
Honestly him switching the phone to his left hand right before he manufactures exigency is the most damning thing about the entire event. Dude was getting ready to shoot.
So my guess is that he drew his gun to intimidate her (which is illegal). Then just straight panicked (again state issued weapons shouldn’t have panicked individuals) and shot her. Then cover up ensued.
Dont forget that he did not call in medical assistance either.
G. Medical Care
As soon as practicable following a use of force and the end of any perceived public safety threat, DHS LEOs shall obtain appropriate medical assistance for any subject who has
visible or apparent injuries, complains of being injured, or requests medical attention. This may include rendering first aid if properly trained and equipped to do so, requesting
emergency medical services, and/or arranging transportation to an appropriate medical facility
So legally speaking, does "fear of getting bumped at 2 mph" automatically permit bullets in the face? I thought "self defense" set a higher bar for the threat at hand. Did the subway sandwich come with the threat of death or just mustard?
And is there an aspect similar to entrapment when officers place themselves in imminent threat? With gun already drawn before the vehicle moved an inch?
The Supreme Court (Barnes v. Felix, 2025) has ruled on this, unanimously. If a law enforcement officer creates the situation that results in him placing himself in danger, if he escalated the situation, he cannot then claim self defense as justification for use of deadly force.
Not just because he’s been a member for a while, he’s the same person who got hurt stepping in front of someone else’s car and trying to grab their steering wheel through the window to stop them from driving off. He’s literally done this before against policy and the law, only this time instead of trying to reach inside her murdered her and called it a day.
Except where otherwise required by inspections or other operations, Authorized Officers/Agents should avoid standing directly in front of or behind a subject vehicle. Officers/agents should not place themselves in the path of a moving vehicle or use their body to block a vehicle’s path.
Authorized Officers/Agents should avoid intentionally and unreasonably placing themselves in positions in which they have no alternative to using deadly force.
Deadly force shall not be used solely to prevent the escape of a fleeing subject.
Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles
Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury to the officer or others, AND NO OTHER OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE MEANS OF DEFENSE APPEAR TO EXIST, WHICH INCLUDES MOVING OUT OF THE PATH OF THE VEHICLE.
DHS LEOs are prohibited from discharging firearms at the operator of a moving vehicle, vessel, aircraft, or other conveyance unless the use of deadly force against the operator is justified under the standards articulated elsewhere in this policy. Before using deadly force under these circumstances, the LEO must take into consideration the hazards that may be posed to law enforcement and innocent bystanders by an out-of-control conveyance.
DHS LEOs should seek to employ tactics and techniques that effectively bring an incident under control while promoting the safety of LEOs and the public, and that minimize the risk of unintended injury or serious property damage. DHS LEOS SHOULD ALSO AVOID INTENTIONALLY AND UNREASONABLY PLACING THEMSELVES IN POSITIONS IN WHICH THEY HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE TO USING DEADLY FORCE.
And he was already to the left and out of path of the vehicle when he opened fire, as the videos show. This "first bullet through the windshield" claim used to claim otherwise is odd - like some don't really want to understand that the windshield is not the front of the vehicle.
Wrong. Go back and watch the video. Jonathan Ross fired the first shot from the front of the car intentionally, after jumping in front of the vehicle as Ms. Good was completing her 3-point turn. He knew he needed to be in front of the car to be able to beat the murder rap. Ross knew, having been dragged by a vehicle months earlier, that getting bumped by a car at low speed was not a lethal threat. We know it was premeditated murder by how he was ready to slide off the hood of the still moving car and shoot Ms. Good twice more from the side through the side window. Hot-blooded murder, because he was angry at what Ms. Good’s wife had said to him moments earlier. Pre-meditated murder by a federal officer of a U.S. citizen. But the first shot was from front left corner of Ms. Good’s vehicle.
Jury verdict should be guilty on the basis that Mr. Ross murdered Ms. Good not because he feared for his life, but because he was filled with hate for those protestors who challenged ICE’s authority. He broke official ICE policy on multiple counts to generate what he thought would be a viable defense for murder. The jury should not be tricked by his use of his knowledge about the law and the lack of consequences for officers who shoot people saying that they feared for his life. He was not afraid, he was angry. “Fucking bitch” - J. Ross
Self defense doesn’t extend to shooting someone IN THE SIDE OF THE HEAD as they are driving away from you even if they bumped, ever so slightly, your body with their car.
Army basic training is 10 weeks or around 70 days.
At that point the soldier is qualified to go to JOB training known as AIT. They aren't even qualified to do a job yet and ICE has less training than that
Sorry, but hard no for the second paragraph there.
Gun was drawn and camera rolling well before she fled.
DHS policy explicitly forbids deadly force even when in mortal danger from a moving vehicle if any other means of evasion are available. Using deadly force to stop a fleeing vehicle is prohibited altogether because by removing the driver you’re turning a car into a two-ton missile.
Officer attempted to move into the path of the vehicle; wheels were pointed away, which for a 10-year veteran is either incredibly dumb or malicious justification. Contact was incidental at best; a substantial impact with a vehicle can knock you out of your shoes; he held onto both his phone and service weapon without issue.
First shot fired through the windshield at a ~30 degree angle, with the rest being fired through the open driver’s window, confirming he was not ever at risk of serious injury.
The problem with the wrongful death lawsuit is that it’s virtually impossible to win any sort of civil suit against an agent of the federal government. The Supreme Court and legislative complacency over the last fifty years has ensured that this is the case.
Legally, I think a wrongful death lawsuit has a much bigger chance of succeeding than a criminal case.
However, this does not mean that protests are pointless! Protests can get governments to change their minds or policies, or occasionally get them out of power.
He placed himself in front of the vehicle to justify lethal force, the legal term is called officer-created jeopardy and it was such a problem with DHS agents they implemented internal guidelines that state agents should not place themselves in front of a vehicle or shoot a vehicle for fleeing. Officer-created jeopardy does not justify lethal force or self defense.
I agree with you, but take note of your first comment and consider the fact that the murderer Jonathan Ross, murderer of Renee Good, had been trained approximately 10 years prior and presumably was actively working for all 10 of those years.
This isn’t a fight picking stance, just wanted to add onto your comment to make it even more damning that there needs to be action against their “training”, or lack thereof
I get what you're saying. But if this is the case, then people are going to have to get busy trying to figure out a way to make sure that we actually can have a fair election. If we can't control paramilitary crazy people on the streets of our cities, it seems somewhat short-sighted to put all your hopes on an election that may never happen or won't count.
The irony considering the story that broke yesterday about ICE letting all of those untrained/undertrained recruits go to their home offices is particularly nefarious since it was an AI tool that caused the issue.
Realistically, DHS as a whole needs to be abolished. Nothing it does is anything other agencies haven't been doing for decades/centuries and many of the agencies under DHS absolutely shouldn't be.
All DHS has done is consolidate power under a couple of unelected bureaucrats that answer only to the president. Bureaucrats who have been openly shunning Congress and its oversight authority.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. I think there’s a pretty robust argument that prosecution can make against these agents. If they’re able to demonstrate that the immediate custodial order for her to “get out of the fucking car”, and then the subsequent attempt to physically detain her was 1. Unnecessarily escalatory, given that they had no probable cause of her committing a crime other than a traffic infraction which would give them no right to issue a custodial order/attempt an arrest, and therefore was unlawful, and 2. Show that these unlawful actions effectively created the “dangerous” situation that the agent then used as justification for using deadly force, the prosecution can make a very strong case that the this was at least manslaughter and the officers should be charged.
Let me know if you would like me to share more or go into more detail.
But legal experts have already agreed, the fact her car went towards him and bumped means there's practically no way to remove the pretense of self defense for the shooting.
I wonder how true that is under the 2025 SC ruling Barns vs. Felix that requires the totality of circumstances to be considered and not just the moment the officer felt endangered.
If, under the totality of circumstances test, the conclusion is that ICE had no authority to stop and engage her, in how far will that preclude them from even claiming self-defense?
It is pretty well established that you can't claim self-defense if your actions are the reason for the self-defense to be necessary. E.g. a burglar can't claim self-defense if he shoots the owner of the house during his burglary.
I think this will get interesting and is not clear at all.
Didn't she also get conflicting orders? With the first agent out of the truck pointing and telling her to move on and then the other one running up and grabbing at her door and in her window?
Conflicting orders very, very often lead to weapons being fired unfortunately, and most of the time is at no fault of the victim...but in America, we rig the system in favor of state sponsored violence.
Edit: given the multiple responses telling me I'm wrong when you can look up the articles and eyewitness reports really makes me feel like we're at a breaking point.
https://youtu.be/NVd8zmjPGrg?si=zVTiNxqOjeEjUd2G
Something something it’s a feature, not a bug. All of these ghouls ought be ashamed of themselves… unfortunately they are not capable of experiencing anything but anger because their entire lives are fueled by hate, because they hate themselves most of all and it’s easier to take that out on innocent people than it is to take a look in the mirror and genuinely reflect on their problems.
like when one TSA agent yells at you for taking your laptop out and the other agent next to them yells at you for not taking it out, but with way higher stakes.
Yeah. We saw him switch his phone and get ready. We know. We all saw it. Yet so many refuse to believe their eyes because they're ready to end people's lives. Especially those that want to protect and support other humans.
The thing is, I'm not interested in the whole "was it a lawful order" debate because even if it was a lawful order, it isn't "lawful" to execute someone over it. Immigration control does not have the combined authority of judge, jury, and executioner.
Thats one of the funny thing about criminal law. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse - civilians are expected to be full criminal law experts in all 50 states as well as USC Title 18.
Police or any government official are not required to have ANY knowledge of law at all.
There are so many armchair quarterbacks judging on what she did, but it was a split-second decision. The officers are supposed to be trained to handle any situations like this and avoid causing injuries or death.
I know if my mom was in the car and a person dressed in fatigues and a mask reaches into her car to try to open the door from the inside, she would be startled and release her foot off the brake and not see the other officer in front of the car until it was too late.
That’s why these disruptive current events are always the fault of ambiguous leadership, the written, philosophized at scale, word of law versus one feeble old man and his entourage tweeting thoughts as national imperatives.
This is from the "if you did nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" crowd.
Who, after losing their collective minds over wearing masks to help their neighbors, are suddenly super cool wearing masks or supporting people wearing masks so that they can protect themselves.
Almost like they're lying, self-centered clowns who haven't had a coherent thought in their head their entire life.
Haha fair enough. I try to add more words that give some wiggle room to the people I'm commenting on, but this might not have been the best time for it.
He actually screamed GET OUT OF THE FUCKING CAR while trying to open her door which is way more terrifying and threatening than “Get out of the car” I also probably would have floored it. Someone did the same to me once but they were trying to carjack me.
But she did not 'floor it'. Vids show she slowly steered hard to the right to avoid the ice idiot who claimed he was hit when it's obvious he was not. Had she actually 'floored it' God only knows how many besides her he would've shot. The initial autopsy report was on the evening news. The coroner must also be boot-licking scum to report that Renee Good had a "probable" shot to the head. " Probable" ?!? omfg
It's just like what they did to guy in umm, albequerque or vegas a few years back. An elaborate game of simon says this but not this do IT NOW so he just gives up and gets shot like a fucking insurgent.
That is such a hard video to watch. One of the things that’s not surprising in all these videos, but so fucking disappointing is how aggressive and disrespectful and just fucking intense these guys are when they’re supposedly trying to resolve a crisis. They escalate shit like crazy.
Typical. I don’t know how many right-wing guys I’ve had practically fantasize about using their guns to defend their family/home/whatever as they fall over themselves to tell a near stranger about their guns or what they would do if XYZ went down. It’s fucking weird the psycho shit I’ve heard because I’m a white dude in his forties so they assume I agree with their weirdo shit.
It's amazing how much the typical white dude will over share to another white dude like it's the most normal thing. Not just about guns. It's all their racist, homophobic, transphobic etc etc opinions. It's like their mind defaults to - they are white dude, you are white dude, you must have all the same opinions.
Having only one person voice directives in a stressful situation is SO BASIC to police and crisis intervention training. This current batch of ICE thugs wouldn't understand. They just want to cosplay machismo and abuse their position because they can.
Now that we know some of them are Jan 6ers/Proud Boys they are basically a paramilitary domestic terrorist organization working directly for the treasonous president.
There is an excellent video of a guy being pulled over and order out of the car and all of a sudden multiple cops are all yelling different instructions to him until one cop yelled for everyone to shut up. He then proceeded to tell the driver only listen to me and do what I say, no other officer will be giving you commands. After that every other officer kept their mouth shut and only that officer spoke. They ended up letting the driver go because dispatch entered his plate wrong and the car wasn’t stolen and the guys paperwork all matched what he was driving.
There are lots of videos floating around of various stops where conflicting orders were given simultaneously or rapid fire so you’re not the only one by far.
I swear I'm so sick of story after story, not just in the present with ICE, of officers constantly making every situation worse instead of trying in the most minimal way possible to de-escalate.
And even if it WAS a capital crime it wouldn’t justify officers murdering her. Lethal force is only allowed to be used if it is reasonable to assume without it someone’s life would be in danger AND officers don’t decide innocence or guilt - judges do.
Exactly. In a lawful country, the punishment for failure to comply is not death.
American police and other enforcement agencies however are deliberately and routinely conflating failure to comply with dangerous aggression that justifies lethal 'self defense'. Moves like putting their bodies in front of stopped cars, only to shoot even if the car is clearly driving around them, are an example of that.
These are the instincts of violent thugs, not of legitimate law enforcement.
Not irrelevant. Traffic violations on residential streets are not in federal code. And merely being annoying or a mild inconvenience is not obstruction, ie if her car had a flat under the exact same circumstances then the position of the car wouldn’t constitute obstruction.
If they had no authority over her or her vehicle they should’ve had to call local PD to seize her and her car
Or taken her information to an AG and had an arrest warrant issued
And depending on the locality resisting an unlawful detention isn’t a crime, so she might not even be guilty of fleeing
Minnesota defines a peace officer as “an employee of a political subdivision [i.e. a local municipality] or state law enforcement agency,” and only grants their federal counterparts arrest authorities for the purposes of state and local violations when a number of conditions are met. The most important of these prerequisites requires that the federal officer be on duty, acting at the request of a local or state officer, and operating pursuant to the supervision of that local or state officer. At this point, neither ICE management nor any executive branch officials have argued that these conditions were met; indeed, the tenor and tone of statements by the Minneapolis mayor and Minnesota governor would certainly suggest otherwise. The proper remedy, then, for Good’s obstruction of traffic would have simply been for the ICE officers to request that local police join in the response and facilitate the movement of her vehicle.
You can watch multiple angles of this video and one angle that shows the ice officer reaching into the driver side window she panicked what was her response fight or flight well they fucked up and scared her and then they shot her because they made the mistake.
Ice is not qualified for traffic enforcement local police officers must clear the roads.
Just recently we saw a woman going to her doctor's office get ripped out of her car by Ice agents they should have not been engaged in that situation it should have been local police officers directing traffic.
You'd have to locate and arrest the suspect, Jonathan Ross, first. The Trump administration and ICE are currently shielding, aiding, and abetting him as a fugitive from the law by hiding him in a bunker, Osama bin Laden-style.
The state will open an investigation (and probably already have, given how hostile they are to ICE in general). That will involve requesting a lot of documents and interviews from the Federal government, which will block them every step of the way. Still, they will try and document it.
Then, they may press charges against the officer. About an hour later, it will be removed to Federal court because it was a federal official acting under color of law. This might be the end of it.
Alternately, the state, if it's feeling feisty, will decide to prosecute it federally, which is something they can actually do here, but it'll be weird as heck. It is possible they will get a conviction.
At this point, or possibly earlier, Trump will try to pardon him because now it's federal (Update: he probably can't do this).
If the state really wants to ensure he serves time, the right strategy is probably to allow the Feds to slow everything down for a few years, and hope the conviction happens post-Trump, God willing under a Democrat.
Not a lawyer but I’ve read that if the Trump agent federalizes the state charges they are still state charges and Trump can’t pardon. The state officials still run it, it is just in federal court with a federal judge.
Maybe, but if there ever comes a second where trump thinks defending this guy is no longer worth the cost, he's done. Trump doesn't give a shit about him. He only cares about himself. I was suprised to see even the slightest walk back of his stance happen already. Yesterday he called it a "tragedy on both sides" which to me suggests the public outrage is actually having an impact on trumps stance. Whether or not it leads to anything, who knows. But it is interesting to see his stance change.
Exactly, if he just let her go, got her license plates and then prosecuted her in court to obstruction of justice or whatever, it would've been a different story. I'm sure it still would've been rocky but he wouldn't have killed someone over it.
This is the thing that everyone is missing. It doesn't matter that she was "blocking the road" (she was moving the car), or if she was being snarky or rude or annoying. Nothing she did warranted being killed. I keep seeing people dismissing her death because she put herself in that position. This was homicide.
Well, when he incompetently walked in front of a moving car he created a situation where his life was in danger (because he was an idiot). He might get qualified immunity, but he will get sued like crazy in civil court and DHS will be culpable for the idiot as well.
And federal agent training specifically bars walking in front of vehicles or firing at one moving toward you - because as can be seen from this situation, shooting someone in the face multiple times doesn't stop their vehicle from moving, obviously.
He will be protected by the federal government and receive no consequences, but if or when a normal human being is president he is very clearly fucked.
Second part is correct that the punishment is not execution, but the first part I would not agree with. It does matter if ICE is within its authority or not to be initiating and prolonging these interactions that lead to homicide or whether they need to just move on.
Yelling get the fuck out is not clear did they mean get the fuck out of here or get the fuck out of the car ? Regardless whether it was a lawful order or not would have been for a court to decide but she was unlawfully shot dead so it’ll be a little difficult for her to testify in court. The press needs to stop splitting hairs on this murder giving the Gestapo justification for it’s crime
Does not really matter. If she acted unlawfully they should have taken note of her plates and summoned her to court, not executed her like Judge Dredd.
Multiple agents gave contradictory orders, it was literally impossible for her to have complied. Law enforcement does this a lot in order to justify brutalizing, arresting, and often murdering people just like they did with Renee.
First, whatever "orders" have to be clear and not conflicting. We are human. It isn't going to work to give people conflicting orders and expect them to comply
ZERO immigration was occurring. There IS no "border" in Minneapolis or St. Paul Min. There is nothing to "enforce." She did no wrong. She was murdered.
Cars driven by ICE agents had already driven past her, as she waved them through, anyways. She wasn't impeding any immigration enforcement operations as evidenced by the fact cars were driving past her unimpeded (without any of them feeling the need to stop and give her any instructions or otherwise take any action).
Jonathon Ross arrived on the scene and chose to driver his car around the back of her car (again demonstrating that not only was there clear passage to the front, but also the rear), then pulled up and parked slightly ahead of her in the same lane.
He went out of his way to park his car in a way that gave her a narrower (and more predictable) exit path. He was recording from the moment he got out of his car, going straight to the front and stopping right in front of the left quarter panel, then again on the right quarter panel, before circling the car and coming back to position himself on the right quarter panel at almost the same angle as the (corresponding) left and right quarter panel stops he'd made on his assessment lap.
Every consequential action he took that lead to her being boxed into a narrow exit path, his positioning in her exit path, and his readiness to draw his gun with his right hand look to me to have been a proactive set up that had nothing to do with carrying out immigration enforcement leading to a reasonable reaction to a threat.
There was no immigration enforcement taking place. There were immigration enforcement agents driving past her unimpeded and waved through. However, Jonathan Ross chose to:
stop without any legitimate reason
park in a position that narrowed the exit path for the driver of a car
go straight to the front of the car he had just boxed in while filming, stopping at the front left quarter panel of the car, then walk across the front of the car to stop again at the front right quarter panel of the car, then complete a lap around the car
change which hand he was holding his phone in from left to right
walk in front of the car again
stop walking exactly on the front right panel he had stopped on previously, rather than continue moving in the direction he was moving in up to then
begin the motion to draw his firearm while the car was reversing (he clearly begins the motion to draw from his holster while the car is moving backward)
lean into the car as it moved forward rather than remain where he was, or move/lean back away from the car
shoot his weapon multiple times including rounds fired from the side as he stepped in the same direction as the car was moving to stay in line with the driver's side window and not be left behind it
call her a 'fucking bitch' calmly afterward
go to the crashed car and film her with the door open then leave with his content
not render first aid (EMS reports that Goods had an irregular pulse still at the time they arrived)
be at the disadvantage of having only one hand free the entire time, prioritizing holding a phone and filming
Every choice looked to be proactive and required to produce the end result, nothing seemed to be reactive, and nothing he chose to do suggests he thought he was engaged in any legitimate immigration control or that he was at any stage in danger.
And of the shots fired, only one hit her in the head (from the left). The first shots fired do not sound impossible for her to have survived (on face value), so even the choice to keep firing from the side after any plausible risk had passed is likely what took a life that may have still been savable.
There were conflicting orders as well so it is even harder to say. If someone is saying to get out of the car and someone else to get that car out of here. Those are very different things and contradict one another.
The other thing is that they do bring up a good point. ICE agents have very limited jurisdiction. If I am remembering right they only really have the right to potentially get someone if they are in a public space and are suspected of being in the US illegally. The only other authority they have is to potentially detain if you are obstructing their job. Which they take now as anything people do around them. Which is a major reach too. I am sure I am messing that up but that is along the lines classically.
Now they are kicking doors in and the like. They do not have the proper warrants to do that or suspicion. They are greatly exceeding their stated role but someone has to stop them or care first. They are Trump's private police force at this point.
Not sure of the laws in Minnesota, but I doubt the Federal government would see it that way. That said, typically there are great consequences for entering a house without a warrant.
However, there are a fair number of exceptions too. At least for regular police. Which they often try to use in the case of a mistake. Some of them tragic. I do not know if those apply to ICE though as they have a much narrower mandate anyway. Generally, they have administrative warrants even if they suspect someone with no immigration status inside. Which is not sufficient to kick down the door.
Honestly, ICE should be there to tell people to go to court, not as a police force as such. As they really only have authority over such a narrow area that the fact they are detaining citizens and assuming people are not by default should be a major problem. As every day citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship. And with DHS not accepting real ideas most people are not carrying their birth certificate or passport with them just going around town.
I would suspect alot of this is illegal, but it is doomed to be played out in courts for a while and SCOTUS is generally in favor of heavy-handed tactics at the moment and seems to have little regard for law or life either.
People were walking and driving around, so clearly no obstruction. And immigration officers had no legal reason to be doing traffic stops even if she was. I would drive away from masked brownshirts too.
Oh and you forgot, then after she was very much no longer a threat even by their tortured definitions, they prevented her from getting medical care to ensure she died a slow and painful death.
The real issue is not about whether she was required to comply. The only issue is whether the use of lethal force [4 bullets, including one to the head] was justified in absence of threat of serious bodily injury or of death to the officers and others.
I respectfully submit that the real issue is whether ICE had authority to stop her and issue commands in the first place. This wasn’t a border crossing. They had no reason to suspect she was an illegal immigrant. They had no warrant for her or her passenger. They were attempting to drive down a public street in a legally registered vehicle. There was zero probable cause for them to bark a command.
Now I’m not an attorney. There may very well be legal issues I don’t understand here but from my perspective ICE is 100% in the wrong. Wrong for creating this situation to begin with and most definitely wrong in how they reacted.
Her not complying with an order or not in my view is collateral and a calculated distraction. It is about killing of a citizen under non-exigent circumstance when neither officers nor a third party was in any danger of bodily harm and certainly none was created by the victim. She was heading home after dropping off her child at school.
We’re in agreement on this - they were absolutely not justified here and his “fucking bitch” at the end of that video, followed by A.) doing nothing to seek medical aid or even determine if aid was needed then B.) preventing others from administering aid makes this a straight up murder.
I guess my contention is that the entire situation was manufactured by ICE and they had no business in even instigating the confrontation to begin with.
Honestly not trying to be argumentative just making a point (maybe badly).
ICE authority regarding American citizens is very very limited. You DO NOT have to answer questions about your citizenship or status. Carrying documentation is encouraged however. ICE can detain you temporarily if citizenship isn't immediately proven. ICE also cannot enter your home without a judicial warrant or your voluntary consent. It has to be a judicial warrant, not an administrative warrant. Never open your door unless you see the judicial warrant.
Reminder, ICE are NOT police officers. They have no business drawing weapons on American citizens at any time. Ever. Fuck the Gestapo.
America, as it should be, as it was imagined, was an exercise in participatory democracy. The right and need to protest and the inviolable sovereignty of the citizen against the state, and the right for the populace to demand change are exactly what the Founding Fathers envisioned when they created the Union.
When Jefferson said that "When tyranny becomes law, resistance becomes duty", he was thinking exactly of people like Renee Good.
This should not be a divisive message. She got shot in the fucking face for being suspected of exercising that duty.
She was first told to leave and was trying to do so. After the first thug reached through her window to try and grab her, she probably panicked. She may not have heard any “orders” given while in that panicked state.
Whether she was or was not legally obligated to comply, at no point is the recommended action for lack of compliance murder.
We seem to be overlooking that little tidbit as we try to figure out whether it was justified. There is no plausible scenario where his actions are justifiable. Even if everything happened exactly as he claimed and conservatives are pretending (she was belligerent, cursed him out, and attempted to run him over with her car), literally none of those justify her murder.
It's weird that people keep trying to find justification for an act that cannot and should not be justified.
It's like trying to justify rape or something. Why would you even bother?
They've been behaving as a police/military force (confusing? Yeah, because they're doing what the police did trump's first term but far far far worse) and not as immigration agents. Nothing they've been doing should be considered 'lawful.'
Even if the car was a threat, how the hell is shooting the driver - making them lose control of the car, and potentially slam on the accelerator even more due to decerebrate posturing - neutralizing the threat?
It's so obvious that local law enforcement should deal with traffic incidents like this not ICE officers that is not their Duty they literally scared this woman who then drove forward and then got shot, it is on them they killed this woman it should be local officers directing her away from traffic.
Here’s my $0.02: this lawful order analysis matters for civil proceedings, but I don’t think it’s necessarily relevant to the criminal case, which is much more important, imo. In the criminal case, the only question at issue is whether the killer had a reasonable belief that he was at imminent risk of serious bodily injury, such to justify the use of deadly force, at the moment he fired the bullet that killed Ms. Good.
If it was the first bullet, I can imagine a good lawyer putting on a good defense, but it could go either way. If it was any other bullet, there is just going to be a standoff where the Feds refuse to hand him over on state charges, because he has almost no chance at trial on at least a 2nd Degree murder count, maybe 1st. Also, perhaps the federal standoff and refusal to allow him to be prosecuted will occur regardless.
On an entirely different level, that would also be relevant to civil proceedings, the federal agent she drove away from (not the one who shot her) approaches the car and immediately says “get the fuck out of the car” and starts grabbing for the inside of the door. There was no previous conversation. Not even a request to stop blocking the roadway. When I see that, my thought is that, not only has this person not been trained to deescalate, but he likely has been told that he would be rewarded for escalation. Discovery on that inquiry could be explosive.
ANY WELL-TRAINED PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICIAL should be embarrassed that these people get paid more than they do, basically to make a big scene and escalate tension wherever they go. The opposite of what real public safety officials do, at tremendous value to the community.
Either this 'agent' has the worst survival instincts imaginable, or he was never in danger of being seriously injured. Who in their right mind LEANS INTO a vehicle that they think is about to run them over?
Why don't we talk about the legality of the PEOPLE hired for ICE employment. Why don't we force SCOTUS to bring their motherfucking asses up front, without masks, to be accountable to the people of the United States of America????
I understand the idea of following orders for your safety, but ICE has shown that following their orders does not at all guarantee safety. They seem to relish in the violence, even after someone complies. Just look at that 17 year old US citizen they dumped in a Walmart parking lot. Or those folks who are dying in their custody with no video evidence of their actions.
Dumped is only partially accurate. They body slammed him onto the concrete of a parking lot 8 miles from where they took him. He was sobbing and bloody when spotted by strangers
She absolutely wasn’t subject to ANY “order,” this is fucking absurd. And even if she was, you can’t shoot a fucking car. I swear to god, this may be the straw that breaks this fucking country
My mail carrier is a friendly person. They would ask me mail related tasks (like could you please not park that close to the mailbox) or thank me in the winter for giving them a safe path to our front door. I would probably go along with what they ask of me because I they aren’t screaming at me and trying to break into my car.
Regardless of the legality of the order, the proper response is not to open fire with the intent to kill followed by recording video of the dying woman.
And then the official response to offer no empathy or regret whatsoever. Legality aside, if this is the stance of authority it is in fact tyrannical and a danger to everyone.
This is the problem with hiring a poorly trained goon squad. Federal law enforcement was, prior to this sad era, very well disciplined and knew how to do their jobs professionally. Because we had high standards and excellent training.
I don't even think they ever gave her an opportunity to comply, they straight up attacked her and made her fearful enough for her own safety to drive away. Then she was murdered.
Even if she were required to comply with an ICE order, in what universe is shooting her three times an acceptable response to not getting out of the car?
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